Fighting game rant. Enter at your own risk

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
61

Please read my posts again and understand them this time. I’m not saying that mvc2 is balanced. I’m saying that the Capcom designers THOUGHT that it was fairly balanced when the game was released and did not implement any of the changes BECAUSE of the reasons I suggested.

All of your arguments are true, under TODAYS standards. But way back when Capcom and beta testers were testing the game it was VERY possible to land an FAB. It was VERY possible to land an hurricane kick with Akuma. They felt those characters didn’t need any changes and thus didn’t give them any.

Although the changes would make the game more balanced, there was absolutely NO WAY Capcom would have predicted how MvC2 would actually turn out (Cable/Sentinel/storm/magneto).

And again, please read Demon’s posts. He was suggesting improvements that he believes Capcom SHOULD HAVE implemented before the game was even released because he believes Capcom should have been able to see that the game would turn into a cable/sentinel/storm/magneto fest. I am of the argument that there was absolutely NO WAY for Capcom… (at the time of the release of the game) to see that Cable/sentinel/storm/magneto would dominate the game the way they do now and thus Capcom didn’t believe they needed to change anything with the CURRENT low tier characters.

62

The argument that top tiers shouldn’t be downgraded for balanced sake is crazy. If one character has something totally retarded giving everybody something equally retarded is not a good solution if you want the game to be somewhat intelligent. That’s like giving every character a die button because Fighter X has one. Yeah the game could be balanced but it’d be retarded but it would be race to who could use their die button first. Who wants to play that? VF is probably the best balanced game out there, but it doesn’t stop there. Practically all the tactics that make the characters good are not mindnumbing stupid and wouldn’t break the game if only that one character had it. This is what developers should shoot for.

63

Guys here’s an idea I got from the entire thread.

Everyone is thinking hey…we should have patches and stuff that are distributed to arcades everywhere to balance things out. But one thing people are not thinking about is the problem about cost.

It’ll cost a shit load to have internet connections just to download a patch that perhaps are distributed every month. Not to mention arcade owners who don’t want to shell out another few hundred dollars for a patch or connection, hell even shipping.

So here’s something else I suggest that is prolly most cost effective and entirely less dependent on distribution of the patches.

Make the game updates dependent on phone technology.

Hear me out. I work at a store where we send out our orders from a machine that basically we phone up the supplier line, hit a button and the machine emits noises not unlike a dial-up connection trying to connect.

Now, if it would be possible for the machine have the software to be able to interpert that sound into programming language…and perform a patch, and have the hardware imbedded into the machine so all the supplier has to do is dial a toll free number, enter what he needs and just hook up his phone to the machine to hear the phone speak patch…then it’ll much more cost effective.

Not to mention that arcade owners will be enthusiastic, instead of having to take apart the machine and then install patches in etc. etc. Nor do they have to have an internet connection.

either that or just have a wireless radio that picks up updates from a mainframe.

64

what the hell are you talkin about here? I can understand ur other frustrations with the toptiers being too powerful compared to the lowtiers, but what u just said here doesnt make sense… or, u are just a begginer in 3s.

Akuma doesnt need ex moves, he has more than enough arsenals to hold his own, why do u think his defense is so poor?

65

The Demon:

Look. While it’s easy to look at a game and say “they should have given this and this to such and such character”, you’ll need to venture beyond the scope of your own irritations in able to see why that logic is fundamentally flawed.

Variety has potential to breed inconsitancy. Would you agree?

If so, then you can see why giving Akuma something as harmless looking as an EX fireball could potentially throw a whole game out of wack (I’m not expressing this in literal terms; just subjectively).

So Akuma gets his EX fireball, now the developers have to go back and look at all the possible ways that can effect 20+ other characters individually and genrically, subtley and not so subtley. Giving Akuma that one move can open the gateway to an overpowered combo. Maybe an infinite. It could totally ruin the balance of a few matchups. It may not. Lets say it does. The developers choose to nerf Akuma by slightly by not choosing to give him an Ex fireball and sticking him with the 3s version he’s got. Now it’s underpowered. Well, that’s better than it being overpowered right? So it stays the way it is, and ends up having a negative effect on Akuma in the grande scheme of things.

It’s like trying to toss a glass marble onto a table of glass marbles without disturbing the others.

Variety is much harder to keep in check than you think.

-Syn

66

Your mind is in the right place - an online solution would need to be cost effective. But wireless technology would be an overall cheaper solution.

67

Or is it just that the truth can be a painful thing? I agree with what Ziggy says.

68

Yes, the truth is a painful thing. Some people deal with it by claiming the game isn’t the problem.

69

Man fuck balance. I love being able to beat Blanka, Sagat, or Cammy with K Haohmaru and Mai. I love being able to beat Sent, Mags, or Storm with Felicia, Tron, and Bulletta. I love giving Sol, Eddie, Millia, and Robo-Ky a run for their money with Ky. Yeah, I play top tier characters too, yeah, I get plenty miffed when I lose to top tier every so often, but so what? A game where EVERYONE would be equal would be pretty fricking boring, and the amount of skill apparent in some players would be instantly evident and I think would ultimately kill the game, or hell, the genre.

Suck it up and pull up your pants man. If your character has disadvantages against other characters, YOU MAKE UP FOR IT. That would represent your skill. That would then make you EQUAL with other players who use top tier. If your characters have advantages against other characters, YOU USE THEM AS BEST YOU POSSIBLY CAN. All this talk about having to scapegoat the company that continues to keep this dry heaving genre alive is acceptable to some extent, but there’s still a human behind the controls.

You can win, noone’s stopping you but yourself buddy. You sound like you’ve got some fear in you. When you turtle, don’t think “I’m afraid of getting hit.” When you rushdown, don’t think “I’m afraid of you hitting me.” When you fucking turtle you SHOULD think, “I am NOT going to let you hit me.”, when you fucking rushdown, think “I am going to HURT you.” Come on now.

70

Chibi wins. Flawless.

N

71

Man, the first post where MC hasn’t used an emoticon at the end.

72

I still want to know how it is you’d get everything right the first time and somehow revolutionize the way we look at balance in fighting games.

73

I agree. I’ve seen more than a few MvC2 matches with Justin Wong playing all low tier characters against someone else using top tiers with Wong being victorious. To me that says depending on the player, the lower tiers CAN win against virtually any character. Of course not all lower tiers can compete in MvC2, but there are some who can. And anyone remember the 3S exhibition at Evo2k2 with Chikyuu I believe it was, who used Twelve and won most of his matches, even against top tier characters? So much for Twelve “not” being able to compete, even if it was two years ago.

74

So far, pretty much everyone here who can’t seem to understand why balancing is so hard has been saying the most ignorant things i’ve ever heard.

To the person who said that guy made the most ignorant comment you ever heard… I think you really just had a nerve struck by something he said about one of those other games he was talking about.

First, let me start of with this:

“That doesn’t change the fact that they nerfed him and plenty of others way too much. You don’t balance a game by making characters unbroken, you balance a game by making more characters broken.”

You know NOTHING about game development. You have no credibility in the field after this statement. You are uninformed.

There’s a reason why “balanced” games are never released at first. EVERYONE wants their games to be balanced. It’s just not oging to happen. These developers spend a lot of time on balance. Otherwise, they wouldn’t even edit the games. Capcom makes unbalanced games? EVERYONE makes unbalanced games! Well, MVC2 I wouldn’t say was supposed to be that serious of a game. But hey… people always say “frick it… add a lot of characters!” (well, uninformed people do) and that is exactly what happens when you do.

SFF3TS is balanced VERY well. True balance is not oging to happen. It’s impractical from a business standpoint, therefor impossible. Phone signal patches? Internet systems? Glorified, unrealistic BS nonsense. This shows where your minds are at. With games like MMO’s, sure. Patch away. But the scope of a fighting game is so small and defined that being nothing but a Beta tester for 3 years doesn’t sound fun.

Got your links and super cancel down for Evo? Not anymore, because they just patched the game. When would they release the console versions? And what would be the point? Frick’ online play and all that crap anyway. I personally hate that, but that’s not the point. What you guys don’t understand primarily is the business world.

Capcom (and most other companies that have successful fighting game franchises) is a business with MANY OTHER projects. Each one has a time frame and a budget. Want online patches? That money comes from the SF3TS budget, meaning something has to be sacrificed. But you didn’t think of that, did you? You’d be the first to complain when SF3TS comes out with 6 characters and 4 stages, no win portraits and no dialogue.

Heck, the smallest varialble can tip the balancing scales. Look at tic tac toe. It’s even, except one person goes first. That person, if you know the game remotely well, is unbeatable. just like that.

SFA3. Same character vs same character matches aren’t even equal. Player side only combos and side only cross ups… that’s all crap that involves changing the base programs to fix. Impractical to go back and do that. Now a character with a good cross up has an advantage. To balance that, they’d have to give every character a good cross up. And it goes like that. EVERY character would have to do good damage. EVERY character would have to be able to do everything. You end up playing the same universal style. BORING. There goes everyones craved for diversity.

Capcom makes nothing bu broken games? Forget you. What an insult. What ungrateful BS. Look at games like SVC. That’s how things COULD be. What happens during Beta tests? Capcom fixes broken things. But they can’t beta test forever. And WE find broken stuff. Most of the time, we CREATE it. Do you think Capcom tested how everyone’s RC moves were in CVS2? No. WE created that mess. We use it. It wasn’t supposed to be there.

We play MVC2 nothing like what Capcom had in mind. NOTHING. Of COURSE they’re not going to Beta test it like it’s the year 2002. Tiers come from players advancing in games. If we can’t advance in the game, there’s no point. So I think unbalances here and there are a small price.

What’s stopping you from picking who you want? I believe with comments like “Give everyone something broken” that you’re not to concerned with true balance but with having cheap options for the characters you like.

I play Ibuki in SF3Ts. IBUKI. My choice. I don’t complain because i’m not eating infinites or glitches that make things unblockable. And you know what? I prefer her over her 2I incarnation because I think this weak version is the perfect character. I work for EVERYTHING I get in a match and I pay dearly for mistakes. But I hcoose to take her and hopefully be one of those people known for turning crap into crystals.

Most of you don’t know what is involved in game development. You know how to complain, but you’re solutions are unrealistic and your view are groundless. “What’s so ahrd about giving X a decent Y?” Some say. As if we’ve always known that X needed Y.

Give me a break and go take a class. Then come back and tel me it’s easy to balance and developers just decide 95% of the time not to do it.

75

wow, best thread i’ve read on here. master chibi and dark symphony hit it perfectly. great arguments.

76

Actually, I think you’re the extremely uninformed one. You blow a lot of hot air without knowing what you’re talking about.

If you want to talk about credibility, iirc, jcase is a pretty credible source. He’s an OG SF tourney player, and I believe he now works for a gaming mag. I’d actually think he’s somewhat of an authority on analyzing fighting games. Maybe I’m confusing him with someone else, but I don’t think I am.

I think you need to go work in game development before you babble all this nonsense. I forget who, but someone posted before about working in game development, I believe it was inkblot or Mr. Wizard, and he told us how they purposely make certain characters stronger because that makes people want to play the games more. The specific example mentioned was Wolverine, and how Capcom knew he had infinites but refused to take them out. You’re deluding yourself if you don’t think the developers are smart enough to understand when certain characters are more likely to have options than others. You give them far too little credit, while at the same time giving them far too MUCH credit for what they’re doing. If they’re smart enough to give certain characters options, then theres no reason why they can’t do that for everyone else.

There are two philosophies to balancing games. Theres the ‘give everyone something broken’ and the ‘make everyone suck’. Everytime they use the latter one the games suck. History has shown that players prefer the former style because the game is just more fun, and something stupid doesn’t unbalance the game. Every character has a chance because they all have damage options. Your comment that it shows that people want characters to be cheap is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. People just want to have a chance, and have character variety. Thats how you balance a game. Nerfing all characters NEVER works, because something slips through and as a result a character is too good because of something retarded. Take MSHvSF for example. Omega Red is good because of cr Roundhouse that most of the cast simply has no option against. Even if they beat it, at most they can do what, a quarter life damage? Whereas Red does what, half at least? Thats just dumb. And thats why thats known as one of the worst games Capcom has ever released. Or take CvS2, Blanka and Sagat on paper really aren’t that good, but since everyone else got nerfed, they become good for stupid reasons. Cammy is essentially the same as in CvS1, except they upped her priority and damage. But then they toned everyone else down, oops. Now shes good for stupid reasons.

3s isn’t balanced well at all. Saying that is delusional. If Capcom made SvC and others played it, you’d be defending that too. As shitty as kof2k3 was, it was played up until SBO2. Nobody playing it actually thought it was balanced or that the game was worth a damn, but they played it anyway. 3s is atleast better than these games, and holds up a bit more, but it pales in terms of balance to a game like #reload. Hell, not even reload, GGXX was a well balanced game itself.

Nobody said Capcom only makes broken games. But even if they did, why would I have to be ‘grateful’? They’re not grateful that I play their games. They have the audacity to charge me money!! As a discerning consumer, it is my duty to myself to choose what I spend my money on and what I don’t. What kind of idiot brings up ‘grateful’ in an argument where he appeals to business sense? I hope you realize how stupid that was.

If we’re going to talk business, its in Capcom’s best interests to get people to play their games. Releasing broken games that only a small handful of players actually likes and clings to is not conducive to succesful business. In fact, I’d say that its quite counter-productive. RTS and FPS have better business models, but instead of copying those models and finding solutions to compete with them, fighting game fans would rather ignore reality and cling to the games they play now. If we’re talking business, 2d fighting games are worthless now anyway, and Capcom shouldn’t even bother wasting its time releasing another game. Capcom shouldn’t even bother balancing at all, because the scrubs will be happy with anything, and thats where the money is made from. Not the competitive players. And even the scrubs won’t buy the game. You’re better off releasing a shitty 3d fighter from a business standpoint.

And the last thing about patches. I don’t know if you play competitively at all, but in competitive play links and cancels and strategies change and are replaced by new, better links that you need to learn and use as the game evolves. 2004 Sagat plays almost nothing like 2002 Sagat, but people didn’t abondon him. Ken has come out of almost nowhere, and everyone that uses him had to learn his links and combos. Hows this that much different than a patch? Whining about a patch is just an excuse for lazy people who don’t want to give up their crutches. FPS and RTS games aren’t beta tested for 3 years. They’re played and patches as things come along. You can probably ship a tiny card that you can slide into a board/cart or whatever if you plan intelligently. If it makes the games better and makes more people play, then it does make sense from a business standpoint. With memory cards and hard drives now coming with systems, you can download patches directly to the HD. One thing is for sure, the current model isn’t succeeding based on the state of the arcade industry and 2d fighting games in the US. Ignoring possible solutions just because you refuse to have change isn’t the smart way to go about things.

77

Good stuff.

78

Serpent owned this thread. Game over.

79

No, this thread is a discussion with many peoples opinions. Although to me it seems to be split into two sides, some people identify with one side while others identify with the other.

Some people are so eager to blame somebody else for not satisfying their own needs, whether it be players or game companies, while some others try to get the most they can out of what is presented to them.

80

I’d just like to jump in and say, the games are balanced. MvC2, CvS2, 3S, hell, everything since SF2:CE has been balanced, because you can choose the same character as your opponent. (P1 vs P2 side bugs aside).

The games are balanced. The character roster isn’t, but the game is balanced. You are playing the guy next to you; it isn’t Character vs Character, its player vs player, and the character you choose to play is an IN-GAME decision. The ability for someone to wait until the last seconds and then choose counter characters against his opponent’s team is part of the game.

(Trivia: In Connect Four, if both players play a perfect game, the person who went SECOND is going to win.)