"I don’t like the situation where one player is dead to a GC because it essentially shuts down all the options for one player."
And this wasn’t an assumption either? for starter you can make sure you properly mix up your opponent unless the game has no mix , but then those game still have grabs or some form of unblock able attack to compensate. Their rarly situation where player is completely out of option.
I’ve played SFA2 extensively and very aware of strong alpha counter is. But they are not invincible. they can be baited and punished. jump in and attack with quick recovery exist in SFA2.
any player who approach their opponent in linear faction will get punished regardless it was Guard cancel, Anti air, Reversal. I love mechanic like these because it keep my opponent from just auto piloting their offense because if can read and react to them then I’m rewarded for it.
GC kill can be done from
King Of fighters=CD GC
Real bout Fatal fury=break shot
Garou= just defend
Last blade =Relfect gaurd cancel>auto follow up
Asuka 120%= Command GC
Cyberbots: Boost gaurd cancel
Rival school=Tardy counter
Neo geo battle collusium=Guard Cancel Front Step
Bleach DS series= Command Gaurd cancel
Breaker Revenge= Gaurd Breaker
Phantom Breaker= Command GC
Aqua-pazza_ Passive Assisstcance
Waku waku 7= Powerup GC
their many more where that came from
some of these are not outright guard cancel attack and are special movement that allow during GC like AH homing cancel, Cyberbots boost guard cancel but generally allow the follow up attack to have potential to kill.
I am not disagreeing on either of those points. In fact, I specifically stated that a) I generally really like guard cancels and b) that even counts if they miss one of the points above. Specifically as long as the GCs can be baited and beaten/punished, I’m likely fine with them.
Again, the thing here isn’t that I don’t understand that guard cancel KOs can be played around (though I admit that my post could have been worded differently), it’s that I personally don’t think the interactions that happen when one player is dead to a GC tend to be very interesting, regardless of which side of that exchange I am on. It’s not a huge deal since this is kind of a fringe scenario, but still, I prefer it when GCs can’t deal lethal damage.
The scenario that really sticks out to me is playing A2 Ken against someone really low on life, which more or less means they’ve lost the option to play a ground game for the rest of the round since now I can kill them even if I block their pokes.
Yeah that was a bad mechanic, but to their credit that was the precursor of throw teching. World Heroes pioneered quite a few interesting mechanics: throw escapes, projectile parrying, roman cancels and guard breaks. Their implementation usually was a bit wonky but the innovation is appreciated. And from what I read on mame info they had an easy combo mechanic like that of Persona and KOF XIV in WH2? Not a fan of that mechanic but that would be another first.
Considering how SFA2 is high risk high reward game the situation is’nt that ad bad as you making it out. I mean its still a disadvantage but that was your reward for playing better than your opponent. I’m not sure why you feel that way but I just wanted to express how I feel the opposite in those scenarios, I only went hard on the matter on your follow up comments to mines which painted a very skew perspective. While I wasn’t tactful my goal was to changed your perspective.
SFA2 while I liked it still harsh game to play, But this scenario still isn’t bad. 70% of the cast don’t even have to risk it with projectiles. Only character who lack them have to use more ingenuity or try to bait them with birdie/adon probably having the worst of it but still option to deal with it. Birdie can attempt command grabs and Adon can use long limps.
Some GCs in A2 were silly, Ken and Rose in particular had such powerful GCs that they really conditioned how you had to play against them. Capcom made them too relevant to the game and instead of just being a defensive mechanic to help against powerful blockstrings they became something you could base your game on to win. There are ways around them so they don’t completely dominate the game, but I prefer them to be less relevant as in something like KOF.
I couldn’t agree more with this, sure when you look back alot of older fighters are busted but like you say, it was about innovation.
if you look between the years of 1992 and 1996 look how much innovation happened in fighters, it’s a case of trial and error.
I think lots of people especially younger ones kinda turn there nose up at older games as busted broken whatever, i think they forget that it was a complete different era, there wasn’t the streaming the LOL esports and all that shit, it’s silly to play a game from say 1994 and have the same expectations as you’d get in a modern fighter
Sorry running wild i did not get to play kof12 in a competitive environment so i couldn’t comment about the throws, or i didn’t even play the game beyond 2 weeks before i binned it.
But i would guess they cannot be worse than SS3, those were reactable, you could jump sideswitch or just stuff them if you were quick enough, shit you could even walk backwards to avoid them in some cases to make them whiff, and the whiff animation was enormous to.
Hell even when you were within range sometimes they’d just whiff for no reason at all
i’d love to be able to get the frame data but nobody gives a fuck lol
A lot of it back then was also just trying to cash in on SFII’s formula. WH was one of fighters I played most during that era (mostly because there was a cab one block from me), but it was clear how much they tried to copy from SFII. Hanzo/Fuuma were basically Ryu/Ken.
Ironically, the first time I saw SFIV Seth I thought “Did these morons really cut-and-paste the boss from a 16 year old game?”
the stronger the normal, the more blockstun you get (the opponent can use backward homing to dodge normals and punish those which have high enough recovery, but the attacker can also bait them with jump cancels, homing cancels and extend force cancels; the “punishable normals” add variety to the pressure game, have to be used cautiously , do reward the attacker with their blockstun and give the defender a reason to try using guard cancels)
grounded E normals can be charged to cause guard crush (the opponent can backstep or use backward homing to dodge a fully charged E normal and punish the attacker, but the attacker can also do half-charges to mess with the defender’s timing and make him/her waste a guard cancel instead – for example, hit the opponent’s defense with a half-charged E attack, the opponent uses backward homing guard cancel, a.k.a. 4GC, instead of a backward homing, because he/she was expecting a fully charged E attack)
besides some command normals, all grounded E normals are air unblockable, they can be dodged with air backward homing, but the attacker can also do half-charges
clashes (intersects) can be used to stop an opponent’s offense (either by countering the opponent’s post-clash offense, or by making the opponent use a defensive post-clash option); with few exceptions, the players which have access to post-clash options can cancel clash into anything that’s not either 1) the action that started the clash or 2) defense or 3) walking; clashes tend to happen more often in arcana because 1) clashes don’t require that either player’s hurtbox is untouched, 2) some attacks have clash frames (which don’t protect the whole body) on their startup (similar to some of KoF’s Maxima’s normals, to give an idea), 3) 6GC (a.k.a forward guard cancel, or forward homing guard cancel) is a guard cancel option that moves the player forward while having clash frames (it’s one way to force the opponent to deal with clash, if the opponent does attack the 6GC with a clashable attack); finally, there’s a lot of possible answers, even indirect ones such as step attacks and karas (through which you can repeat the attack that initiated clash), you can clash projectiles (certain attacks that look like “strike attacks” are counted as projectiles, easy to see though because projectiles don’t give clash options to their user and save for few exceptions, they don’t cause as much clashstop as strike attacks do), and there are attacks (strike attacks and projectiles) that aren’t clashable
the homing mechanic can be used as a means to mix the opponent up (for example, if the opponent is grounded, you can use homing actions – a.k.a. “speed homing” – to quickly home in towards the opponent while using an attack – actually, you leave the homing state while attacking towards the desired homing path --, like using a throw whiff to do an empty jump and then grab the opponent who was expecting a jump-in attack; besides homing actions, you can do high/lows or left/rights by moving the lever while homing)
the homing mechanic can be used as a means to start pressure (for example, you can home towards your opponent with the intention of initiating pressure, rather than to mix him/her up)
the corner helps the attacker, because it’s always possible to cross the defender up; thus, no one wants to be in the corner. There are mid-screen left-right mix-ups too, depending on the character/arcana, and some characters are more offense-oriented
the Extend Force (A+B+C while on the ground, requires a 100% force gauge) helps with neutral and pressure for most arcanas (since for most arcanas, EF increases movement speed and attack speed, so in general, attacks like overheads/lows are faster and have less recovery frames, besides other stuff like added cancel routes, air reverse beat, special cancel property for E attacks)
throws are still useful in arcana, there are two types of them: lever (left/right) throw and neutral throw; the former is harder to throw break but doesn’t allow combos after it, and gives a moderate knockdown; the latter allows air combos but the damage isn’t great due to launching the opponent high in the air (so there aren’t rejumps, afaik), and the damage scaling being set to 50% after the throw (guard crush attacks also set the damage scaling to 50%); tick throws aren’t strong by themselves, in order to use them as frame traps, the attacker needs to be close enough to the target; if he/she isn’t, he/she will have to do a forward step to get into throw range, but the opponent can do a crouching light attack and stop the attacker (all characters have step guard, jump guard and high jump guard, and there aren’t too many air unblockable attacks); in order to prevent this, the attacker can use a frametrap instead of attempting to step in and throw. If the opponent’s afraid of a frametrap (and doesn’t attempt to high jump guard to escape pressure), the attacker can try a step throw.
AH is well design game because it gives mix up option for both Offensive and defensive players. It does this by giving different option similar situation and mostly allowing multiple cancel for them. Keeping the option wroth whiled but not game breaking either.
Almost All examu game give mix up for bothe agrresive and defesive player, as it should be. @Shadow Bringer
In Arcana hearts love max, some of these option have been expanded.
Throw are now Extend force cancel so player can get bit more out of their throws. Extend force during guard cancel in form of Arcana blast is also now Another GC so defender have another option to mix up their guard cancel.
You wanna talk about bad throw systems
in soulcalibur 5 you take damage for breaking the throw
I abused it because you could chip kill somebody by forcing them to break after making them respect alpha patrokolos frame traps
Depending on earlier you break it you receive less damage, also you are left in disadvantage when you break the throw.
I actually liked it a lot, it worked on the game because you can dodge a standing throw by crouching for example.
Despite how it sounds it is balanced. I think that is very good and works for the series (It has been in from like the very beginning)
It is very reminiscent of the SF2 throw break system.
you only take damage in 5
normally i would crouch throws and punish on reaction
i dont like how its basically a guessing game since the animation for both looks the same… though it partly depends on stage
you more likely to break for a certain button if you know someone has a throw that rings you out
if you broke to late you would take damage and fall down putting you in a bad oki situation
If you are being thrown on SC you already made a lot of mistakes that lead you to that situation.
Is not that we (or at least me) are biased to offence, but that in the context of the game and the other mechanics in places makes perfect sense.
You already said it, if you break the throw just in time you can avoid the bad oki situation and the damage, if you do it late you don’t eat the whole damage and any followup situation but you are not left on a neutral state either.
If you are getting thrown you are fucking up, and there’s no reason why the attacker should be treated equally than the defender when the attacker has put more commitment in the throw action than the defender. I can live with damage-less techs in games where offense is very strong like KOF or GG (the latter ditched throw escapes in Xrd anyways) but in games where defense is strong as in SC or most SFs making throws bad hurts the game.
