Fighting game mechanics discussion

[keo-bas]

One of my favorite mechanics that I wish more games had is Reverse Beat. Being able to chain in any direction gives characters loads of different combo options, lets you create intense and interesting pressure strings by chaining heavier attacks into lights to make them safer, and generally makes things easier for new players trying to learn combos. To my knowledge, only Melty Blood and UNIEL have it; are there any others?

This isn’t exclusive to frenchbread games. Other games have them but with more limitation.

Other game that uses it by Resources

Dengeki bunko fighting climax: Triump system
SFA2/SFA3/CvS2 :Custom Combo
SF EX: Excel
Arcana Hearts: Extend force
Last Blade 1: Speed mode activation
Sonic the fighter : Hpermode
Asuka: Overdrive
Phantom Breaker : Quick/EX overdrive

I’m pretty sure their more but this the one I can think of on the top of my Head
other game allow it via condition met or predefine strings so not sure if those count.

@OP

[details=Spoiler]
*gaurding mechanics

Fill-in cafe Asuka 120% into its spiritual successor Phantom Breaker have drastic mechanic changes especially in its guard mechanics.
Most Asuka series incorporated auto guard feature where if your neutral you’ll guard any attack except low. One could also guard cancel into dashes/back dashes, command moves and supers. On top of having Air guard and limited AA options. Defense was stupid strong in Asuka games. The game did had Air grab but these could be tech and were hard to pull off too. In Asuka Final this problem became worst when Hi-jumped invincibility was introduce as a guard cancel option, making it extremely difficult to keep up pressure.

Phantom Breaker nerf guard heavily by giving it a guard meter which made offense much better and stronger. Gaurd crush is common in Phantom breaker high level play. Guard cancel was also nerf by making it wear done user guard gauge, having start up, and limited guard cancel to counter burst,EX, and Super. Air guarding was weaken too by taking extra guard damage too. Phantom breaker also introduce frame trap moves that can weaken or even disable guard cancel option. Its possible to loop certain block string into guaranteed frame trap with overdrive or certain block string,

*Meter
One of Asuka 120% burning festival trade mark mechanic was its “Burning mode” Burning Mode was a state that allow player to use Meter moves at No cost. To achieve this Players had to get their meter to 100% and maintain it for a while until burning mode activated. Due to strong capabilities of Infinite meter, Asuka became a First to 100% until burning mode activated and abuse it after wards.
A particular strong strategy was build the meter conversely and win the first round at 90%-100%. Next match would immediate start burning mode and do tone of damage and then run away for the remainder of the match, or on some occasion TOD as soon as player confirmed a hit. While the Defender could try to run away from The Burning mode player has little risk chasing run away player because most super had instant start up and whiffing came with little consequences due to infinite meter. As long the Burning player ended their Burning mode with high health advantage, it made come back extremely difficult for the losing player.

Phantom Breaker address this By having meter reset after every match and modifying the burning mechanic into the Tension mechanic. Tension was separate gauge from player regular super meter that players shared universally. Building the Tension mode to the fullest activated Tension mode which acted similar to burning mode but few key differences. Tension mode only refilled the player gauge automatically instead of being a limitless resource. Any action that uses meter will have to be restocked, This way their was some cool down time before players could use meter driven move in tension mode. Tension gauge also influence damage output. Doing all these kept Phantom Breaker from being race to meter build like its predecessor Asuka 120%.

*overdrive

Another thing about Asuka was meter building, Asuka only allow meter build by both player interacting with by attacking, blocking, and clashing. In phantom Breaker player can Build meter subtly on their own with movement such as walking and dashing, having low life also causes meter to build slowly over time. While Phantom Breaker generally reward the aggressor, certain situation the defender is rewarded more. Actively attacking opponent and having your attacks blocked or hit rewarded meter to the aggressor, but if the defender can nullify their attacks, the attacker receive no meter and at risk of counter attacks for all their trouble.

Another example In Asuka Finale Over drive made it into an ToD game, their was no reason to not blow all your meter and do long combo in Asuka. in Phantom breaker, it’s subtly use in high level play because combo during Overdrive gave insane amount of meter to the person being hit, the same goes for Supers. These didn’t invalidate these tool but made player more mindful when to use them. If their combo going to take a round, do tone of damage, or opponent wont benefit from overdrive due to overheat. Then drive combo was worth doing, other wise player use them subtly`to avoid giving the opponent the advantage after it ended. (Overdrive had more usage utility wise). (Throw loops was created to allow over drive combo that didn’t give meter)[/details]

[BB_Hoody]

I’ve been playing a bit of SFxT lately, and there’s one thing that struck me me when I revisited the game 3 years later: despite the fact that the game has both crouchtechs into full combos and invincible backdashes(two of the big boogeymen of SF4 mechanics), both issues are far less annoying in SFxT than in SF4. There’s an universal anti-crouchtech option in the low-invincible raw launcher that, while unsafe on block, makes it a lot less tiresome to actually beat crouchtech since you don’t need to hit it in a 2-3 frame trap window like you had to in SF4 (though that option still exists). Furthermore, a lot of command normals (all of them?) leave an airborne opponent in a comboable state rather than resetting them, so certain offensive strings will just bop the opponent out of the backdash for a full combo. And, ~50% of the cast had access to strings that functioned as true blockstrings, allowing un-backdashable offense in the first place.

It’s interesting how much changes in that regard simply by changing a couple of mechanics.

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Also, another mechanic to talk about: guard cancels. I usually love it when they’re in a game, provided the following are true:

1. It has a resource cost tied to it
2. It can be baited and beaten in some way
3. it can’t actually deal lethal damage

It’s still a mechanic that can work even if not all of these things are true, but are there cases where GCs fail all of these criteria? And, in that case, how did that shape the game?
I believe Baiken from GG and several characters in VSav fit the bill here, but I have very little experience with both cases, so I’m curious to how that worked out.

Well GC in savior work exactly how you listed you don’t want them to work lol. Base version cost no meter They can KO, You can even perform EX versions of them. But they at least can be baited out though. You see your opponent like to GC a lot? Just do a 2 hit chain on block and immediately block after the 2nd hit. Or just go for a command throw. It’s a mixed bag in terms of how it effects the game. A lot of characters GCs are ass and aren’t even worth using so they are non factors. But when up against some one with a legit GC like Bishamon or Lord Raptor. Yeah you have to respect it, and not be so crazy just pushing buttons on their block.

TLDR: Some characters in Vsav have bad GCs that are a non factor I.E Hsein-Ko and Rukio, while some have great ones like Bishamon and Raptor, which forces you to pic and choose when and how to apply pressure. Then there’s BB Hood’s. Which depending on the character, is either a non factor or the best GC in the game. I.E hers is the only GC that works on Beam supers.

[StoneDrum]

I agree with fatalseabass. Can’t stand the throws in samsho2 for these reasons. Plus the invincibility frames are so stupid. Plus no throw escape? When both players are trying to throw it often comes down to who can mast the fastest. And throws going through the entirety of a jab is fucking annoying. That game could benefit from dedicated throw input and throw escapes. You can run at the opponent trying to throw them only to get thrown because they tried to jab you. Or you could be trying to run into jab then get thrown again by someone trying to jab. It’s just dumb. The range is way too big too. It’s just clunky and devolves the metagame a bit.

I like the blazblue throw system but I think they’re slightly too easy to tech. I just don’t like how old games usually handle throws… Third strike is probably my favorite for throws

[FatalSeabass]

Directional throws: i.e SF2 throws, Guilty Gear throws, etc. I’d rather have a dedicated throw button or the two button throw. I just really hate how in some games, that kind of throw is viable on wakeup if someone is trying to meaty you. Or you get a dumb option select. That’s why I hated crouch teching. You’ll see people go on and on about honesty in fighters but let a throw counter be a properly decided throw counter instead of you relying on the computer to choose what’s best for you.

I’m on the other side, I absolutely detest two button throws or games with normal throws that have whiffs. I’ll take the simple throw->normal option selects that result from good olschool throws over the crappy ranged, slow startup, low damage throws with whiffs that have riddled so many modern fighters, they hurt fundamentals so much.

Also reversal throws are very execution intensive and if you are getting throw reversaled a lot your opponent is really good and you need to space yourself better.

I see what you mean. I think both sides have their pros and cons but the idea that back+Heavy resulted in a successful throw or an option select block makes me angry when I play those games, especially with specific throw ranges. You might be right though. Not sure if you play GG, but my Dandy Step meaty setups always get thrown on the opponent’s wakeup. I just need to download what Hase is doing, lol.

Also, I like guard meters. Forces defensive players to change up their style in tight situations while giving offensive players something less frustrating to deal with against turtlers. Not to say that they don’t already have tools but it’s another layer that can be experimented with.

[Cronopio]

I agree with fatalseabass. Can’t stand the throws in samsho2 for these reasons. Plus the invincibility frames are so stupid. Plus no throw escape? When both players are trying to throw it often comes down to who can mast the fastest. And throws going through the entirety of a jab is fucking annoying. That game could benefit from dedicated throw input and throw escapes. You can run at the opponent trying to throw them only to get thrown because they tried to jab you. Or you could be trying to run into jab then get thrown again by someone trying to jab. It’s just dumb. The range is way too big too. It’s just clunky and devolves the metagame a bit.

Samsho 2 throws have no invincibility, they just are zero frames like pretty much all oldschool throws so they work as reversals and you will get thrown if you are in range. Also how could someone throw you by attempting a jab lol, you can grab only with medium and strong attacks. Adding throw escapes to that game would greatly hurt offense, it already favors defense. Throws work perfectly fine in that game, you just aren’t used to playing fundamental-heavy oldschool fighting games. Lots of beginners complain about throws in ST too for example, not understanding that worse throws would make the game much worse also.

[StoneDrum]

Well if they are zero frames they might as well be invincible. I’ll throw out an attack and the attack will go right through the opponent and then I’m thrown. I guess it continues the animation despite being thrown…?

I disagree. I’m not complaining I just hate how throws work and I’m glad that way went the wayside because it’s archaic as well as runs that can’t be stopped or require frames before a hit comes out. Sure say the metagame is fine, but I’m talking from a control perspective not how broken the metagame is.

The mentality “one doesn’t like it this the are beginner, don’t understand etc.” is really stupid as well. I just think modern innovations in fighters like

Run or dash cancelling, throw escapes, input buffering, smoother animation (can be considered a gameplay mechanic in a sense), etc create a much higher sense of responsiveness and control over movement and actions

[Cronopio]

No, I just mean that you don’t understand oldschool games enough to have a well informed opinion on them, and you have barely any experience with Samsho 2 to really know how these throws work, otherwise you wouldn’t ask for what you ask. You even said that people jabbing could accidentally throw you and that’s completely inaccurate. If you are getting thrown so much it’s not the game’s fault, it’s your bad spacing and timing that’s to blame.

Oldschool throws are great and cause nothing you say. Samsho 2 throws work perfectly fine on the game they are, make them worse and the game becomes worse as it becomes much more defensive. On the other hand modern two button throws with whiffs can cause much more serious problems, especially when the game doesn’t add a lot of alternate offense options as in something like Arcana. just look at vanilla SF4.

[keo-bas]

---

Also, another mechanic to talk about: guard cancels. I usually love it when they’re in a game, provided the following are true:

3. **it can’t actually deal lethal damage
   **
   It’s still a mechanic that can work even if not all of these things are true, but are there cases where GCs fail all of these criteria? And, in that case, how did that shape the game?
   I believe Baiken from GG and several characters in VSav fit the bill here, but I have very little experience with both cases, so I’m curious to how that worked out.

I’m on the complete opposite end. If I make succeful read on your pressure I should be rewared to mess you up for not minding your situations.

Game like AH3, Nitro blaster, LB2, Garou, Real bout have no problem with these.

Bursts: It depends on how it’s handled. Like TvC where your 2 meters gave you burst? Fuck no. I loved TvC but that was retarded and you clearly saw how that affected high level play. Like GG? Sure. Like Dengeki? Even better since you have three different options and situations where burst has multiple applications.

How did megra crush affected High level play in negative way? I remember advance player showing way to deal with it.

DBZ extreme boutoden, Naruto shippuden have burst that are strong but people learn how to deal with them by doing baiting it or doing burst safe combos.

Phantom Breaker burst dame near brocken if score a counter hit but their plenty of way to bait it out too.

[Running_Wild]

Man I hate two button throws.

They were generally pretty shitty in Alpha 3, and in Third Strike (SF4 and SFV as well) it just turns into a panic button because you have to always respect your opponents throw after every wake-up and jump-in. Then there’s BlazBlue’s throw system… I think that game is a pile of shit with the way throws function and how it turns into a guessing game if a throw will be used to create a reset.

KOFXII tried the two button route and it was a disaster.

For one button+direction type throws I think games like Darkstalkers, Fatal Fury 3 and Capcom vs SNK 2 where regular throws have whiff animations works pretty well.

The only game in particular where I don’t like the one button+direction type throws is Guilty Gear, I think they are way too good in a game like that where they can potentially lead into devastating combos with some characters.

Honestly the only type of games where I like the two button throws are in 3D fighters, they feel way more natural in those those of games.

[Foil]

Bursts: It depends on how it’s handled. Like TvC where your 2 meters gave you burst? Fuck no. I loved TvC but that was retarded and you clearly saw how that affected high level play. Like GG? Sure. Like Dengeki? Even better since you have three different options and situations where burst has multiple applications.

So what would you say to a game like Burst Limit, where bursts cost next to nothing?

[Virtua_Leon]

Man I hate two button throws.

They were generally pretty shitty in Alpha 3, and in Third Strike (SF4 and SFV as well) it just turns into a panic button because you have to always respect your opponents throw after every wake-up and jump-in. Then there’s BlazBlue’s throw system… I think that game is a pile of shit with the way throws function and how it turns into a guessing game if a throw will be used to create a reset.

KOFXII tried the two button route and it was a disaster.

For one button+direction type throws I think games like Darkstalkers, Fatal Fury 3 and Capcom vs SNK 2 where regular throws have whiff animations works pretty well.

The only game in particular where I don’t like the one button+direction type throws is Guilty Gear, I think they are way too good in a game like that where they can potentially lead into devastating combos with some characters.

Honestly the only type of games where I like the two button throws are in 3D fighters, they feel way more natural in those those of games.

You liked throws in FF3? why?
Shit was funkier than james brown

[keo-bas]

[list=1]
[*]
[/list]

Bursts: It depends on how it’s handled. Like TvC where your 2 meters gave you burst? Fuck no. I loved TvC but that was retarded and you clearly saw how that affected high level play. Like GG? Sure. Like Dengeki? Even better since you have three different options and situations where burst has multiple applications.

So what would you say to a game like Burst Limit, where bursts cost next to nothing?

not true bursting in burst limit push your fatgiue gauge crazy high. did two in row and your guaranteed fatigued state which not only lets your opponent get full punish but debuffs any transformation state you had l.

[Running_Wild]

You liked throws in FF3? why?

Because they had start-up and could whiff like in Darkstalkers.

After Fatal Fury 2/Special I was really getting pretty sick of how BS regular throws were in that game (And Street Fighter II as well) where they could do upwards +50%.

[Foil]

[list=1]
[*]
[/list]

Bursts: It depends on how it’s handled. Like TvC where your 2 meters gave you burst? Fuck no. I loved TvC but that was retarded and you clearly saw how that affected high level play. Like GG? Sure. Like Dengeki? Even better since you have three different options and situations where burst has multiple applications.

So what would you say to a game like Burst Limit, where bursts cost next to nothing?

not true bursting in burst limit push your fatgiue gauge crazy high. did two in row and your guaranteed fatigued state which not only lets your opponent get full punish but debuffs any transformation state you had l.

Maybe you’re thinking of a different game? Bursting in Burst Limit has no fatigue cost at all. Teleporting has a fatigue cost, presumably to balance the fact that teleports are harder to bait, but even that is small enough that you can do several in rapid succession without being at risk of a dizzy.

[Cronopio]

You liked throws in FF3? why?
Shit was funkier than james brown

Haha yeah. In FF3 they were particularly bad: they had quite a bit of startup so sometimes pressing directional and attack up close to start a combo was a self-destruct button since you whiffed and the opponent had 10000 frames to punish and kill you. Worst of all they had oldschool range so the problem was amplified.

It was such a bad idea that it was the only time they attempted such a thing.

[Naeras]

---

Also, another mechanic to talk about: guard cancels. I usually love it when they’re in a game, provided the following are true:

3. **it can’t actually deal lethal damage
   **
   It’s still a mechanic that can work even if not all of these things are true, but are there cases where GCs fail all of these criteria? And, in that case, how did that shape the game?
   I believe Baiken from GG and several characters in VSav fit the bill here, but I have very little experience with both cases, so I’m curious to how that worked out.

I’m on the complete opposite end. If I make succeful read on your pressure I should be rewared to mess you up for not minding your situations.

Game like AH3, Nitro blaster, LB2, Garou, Real bout have no problem with these.

I don’t like the situation where one player is dead to a GC because it essentially shuts down all the options for one player. The other player essentially just needs to block an attack to win. It takes away too many options for the player that’s behind, and I don’t think the resulting scenario is fun for either player.

[ilitirit]

I hated World Heroes throw system where throws could be reversed.

[keo-bas]

---

Also, another mechanic to talk about: guard cancels. I usually love it when they’re in a game, provided the following are true:

3. **it can’t actually deal lethal damage
   **
   It’s still a mechanic that can work even if not all of these things are true, but are there cases where GCs fail all of these criteria? And, in that case, how did that shape the game?
   I believe Baiken from GG and several characters in VSav fit the bill here, but I have very little experience with both cases, so I’m curious to how that worked out.

I’m on the complete opposite end. If I make succeful read on your pressure I should be rewared to mess you up for not minding your situations.

Game like AH3, Nitro blaster, LB2, Garou, Real bout have no problem with these.

I don’t like the situation where one player is dead to a GC because it essentially shuts down all the options for one player. The other player essentially just needs to block an attack to win. It takes away too many options for the player that’s behind, and I don’t think the resulting scenario is fun for either player.

can you name a game that does this? any decent design game would have option for the player to handle a situation, and if it doesn’t then you have to conform to its gameplay to stay competitive. IF dealing with guard cancel then you need to be mixing up your opponent. You shouldn’t be relying on the game to put you in favorable situation but making one for yourself.

Besides that what do you think is suppose to happen? If the opponent in position to punish the other, its that disadvantage player fault for putting them selves in high risk situation in the first place. You either deal it or just stop playing.

[Naeras]

can you name a game that does this? any decent design game would have option for the player to handle a situation, and if it doesn’t then you have to conform to its gameplay to stay competitive. IF dealign with guard cancel then you need to be mixing up your opponent. You shouldn’t be relying on the game to put you in favorable situation but making one for yourself.

Besides that what do you think is suppose to happen? If your opponent in position to punish you for careless action, its that disadvantage player fault for putting them selves in high risk situation in the first place. You either deal it or just stop playing.

You’re jumping to an awful lot of conclusions about why I don’t like GCs that can deal lethal damage here.

SFA2 is a good example of why I don’t like it. A lot of the cast has alpha counters that do decent damage, have huge range (so you’d use them in neutral), and can score KO. If you’re dead to an AC, you can literally get killed if you get one of your attacks blocked, which leads to some really uninteresting standoffs. Which is also part of why it’s very common for games that have guard cancels to specifically not be able to deal lethal damage (see SFV, SFxT, GGXrd, and I believe CvS2).

Are there any specific games you’re thinking about where you really liked GCs being able to kill?

[Virtua_Leon]

You liked throws in FF3? why?
Shit was funkier than james brown

Haha yeah. In FF3 they were particularly bad: they had quite a bit of startup so sometimes pressing directional and attack up close to start a combo was a self-destruct button since you whiffed and the opponent had 10000 frames to punish and kill you. Worst of all they had oldschool range so the problem was amplified.

It was such a bad idea that it was the only time they attempted such a thing.

throws were the same in samurai showdown 3, maybe even worse.
But yes both games easily have the worst throws in fighting game history, oh wait and svc chaos where they cost meter on whiff HAHA!