How well does Karnov fireball teleport work against Jean?
You have to anticipate and do it just before Jean throws a rose. And if he doesnāt throw a rose, it goes from Jean being safe to Karnov being stun depending on the distance. All in all, itās pretty useless and/or dangerous to try to teleport.
Jean contends with Ray for the best zoning in the game. You just canāt jump against him, forget about it. Crouching HP is so ridiculous. The flashkick is excellent and even if you fuck it up itās difficult to punish for most characters, his sweep has huge range and is cancellable into booms, and far standing HP is another excellent antiair and has shitloads of priority.
On top of all that, if he dizzies you the round is most likely over thanks to close standing fierce xx ABCD, cr. HK combo, which does retarded damage, and itās quite easy to get dizzies with Jean.
Other than Zazie, he has no losing matchups: goes even with Ray and beats Karnov IMO, and has advantage against the rest of the cast, although I had a lot of trouble against a good Yungmie at 2df (igor456) but that may be my lack of knowledge on that matchup.
One thing Karnov has going for him that I found the other day is that he can lock Jean down with cr. LP, standing HP xx 100 kicks because even though there seems to be a window to reversal, the flashkick misses Karnov entirely, leaving Jean open for punishment. Maybe the other Jean was fucking up or something, but heās quite good (pablox at 2df) so I doubt it.
I think the top should be Ray, Zazie, Jean, Karnov, in that order.
By the way, there needs to be a Karnov faq at the wiki, his bullshit is so fun. I think Iāll be doing a Jean one soon, I have been playing with and against him a lot lately.
Thereās a catch. If Karnov does cr.LP(only one and close to you), standing HP, kick, you can throw him after it(he might be able to balloon but iām not sure). If he does 2 x cr.LP, you can reversal flashkick between stand HP and kicks but if he fakes, youāre done. If he does 3x cr.LP or does 2x cr.LP from far, you can do a reversal ABCD between stand HP and kicks ; it will trade, but itās way safer than whiffing a flashkick. It becomes a guessing game. Karnov has āholesā in his offense, you just have to know where. That and the fact that he shouldnāt be able to get close at all.
diablo cant jean just cr.lpXXrose krnov out off the flying kick at some of those ranges? seems almost risk free =]
I dunno, I still think Karnov is the least powerful out of the top tiers. He doesnāt match that well against Lee, Ray, or Zazie. I canāt comment on Jean, but I definitely think Lee is top 3 because his 80% is so practical. If you can do the fireball consistently then a dizzy means death.
I think Lee is definitely not top tier. I see him as a Fei Long on crack: if he gets in, you are fucked up. The problem is, many characters can keep him away pretty well, and his effectivity decreases a lot. I wouldnāt put him above high tier.
I agree that lee isnāt top tier as well, heās similar to Iron man, if he can touch you, heāll win, but what tools does he have to touch you other than jumping, rekkas which push you out on block and maybe upkicking a poke? One combo and they are fucked but itās very difficult to get that one combo in.
Also with Karnov, maybe I donāt know if I played the craziest Jean, but I would say heās pretty good.
I feel that Karnov does have to work, but itās not terrible by anymeans. If Iām opposite sides of the screen, I can close in a little by sliding under the fireball or tiger kneeing ballons and hovering ala Balrog when he jumps straight up and does that fierce punch to inch forward. When Iām mid screen, I just tigerknee ballons (inch forward than back) over his fireballs outside of his furthest poke range and play it from there. This negates Jeans greatest tool and he canāt really antiair me since Iām out of his range, I can scare him from there and force him to make mistakes.
Fei Long doesnāt win rounds instantly because the opponent failed to block low once, and Fei Long doesnāt have a move that lets him traverse the length of the screen damn near instantly.
Ok, Jean and Marstorius do beat Lee. Ray probably goes even with himā¦ the match can go either way and there might be a slight advantage for either player, but itās fairly even. Lee vs. Zazie Iām not 100% sure about. Everyone else gets raped by Lee, including Karnovā¦ so how is he not top tier?
You say you can keep Lee out, but itās not that simple. Get too careless throwing fireballs and heāll nail you with a qcb, f + HP Zetsu. You can try throwing random jabs out to stop his Zetsuās, but he can also mix up the buttons to vary the lengths and have them stop short, or end up trading in his favor. Once he gets relatively close, a random standing HP will usually out-prioritize anyone elseās poke and let him combo into a Zetsu + followup.
Lee takes huge advantage out of the dizzy system, standing HK into palm blast is ridiculous damage against anyone with a mid-level weak point (which a lot of characters have), and an additional qcf+LP, f, f + HP followup can be comboed after that for extra damage (but it gets scaled down pretty badly). A lot of Lee players online donāt make use of the palm blast at all, they just do the usual bread n butter combo instead on dizzy, which still does good damage but still. Not using the palm blast isnāt playing Lee to his fullest potential. Maybe you just havenāt played a good one, because he is a very dangerous character when played right.
Not if the flying kick is 2-in-1āed but if thrown randomly, yes.
Hmm, no. Jean can just walkup and react. Balloon forward, you get AAāed, balloon backward you just lose distanceā¦ perfect for Jean. Even if he doesnāt move you canāt scare him from there because youāre not close enough to be dangerous. He can out-prioritize anything you try to do from midscreen. The real problem in that match is that for Karnov to win, Jean has to do a pretty huge mistake.
Lee is top even if any char with a fireball can annoy him alot(I feel like ray has the edge against him, but just a bit). Wonāt explain in details since Lord BBH already did.
Well, I ballon an inch forward then back, or an inch back then forward very low to the ground over his fireball. This wiggles me in and out of his ranges so when I land and heās holding charge, if he throwās another fb and I can slide sweep him knocking him down.
If he random flashkicks, I block then I still get to knock him down.
If he hesitates still holding charge to see if I will jump in ballon or sweep, thatās where the guessing game begins and thatās the moment you can start scaring Jean, not necessarily to whiff big moves per say, but to start making him doubt his decisions, youāre getting in his head.
I guess Iām really a type of person to play the player though. Just how I play I guess.
Seems like you play exactly like a friend of mine. Thing is, if you can sweep Jean, Jean can sweep you too. Which means he could wait for you to land then sweep into FB/ABCD. Except re-ballooning(not sure you could but that would be the only option), you would be forced to guard and the sweep would make Jean push you away. Back to 0. Iām not saying itās foolproof(Jean would have to make good decisions everytime) but there are choices that covers a good 80% of Karnovās option from mid screen. Thatās why iām saying that Karnov should not be able to get close to a good Jean if he doesnāt do any major mistake.
Against pretty much any type of jump in, Jean can cr.C(would hit/trade with pretty much all of Karnovās jump ins) then react to the balloon if Karnov did one(flashkick/jump throw if Karnov is above, FB if karnov goes away so he lands on it). Thing is, if jean gets hit/knockdown once, the matchup changes radically and karnov gets the upper hand.
Good discussionā¦looks like we agree! haahaha
Glad the tiers got rearranged a bit. I knew Lee was higher than that but people kept coming with bullshit reasons to stop it. Dude gets free wins just because you breathed wrong.
Mizuki or someone post the NEC 9 results for FHD
How many people entered?
Fighters History Dynamite (12 particapants, 2 forfeits)
1st: Justin Wong (Karnov Balloon, Lightning Kick RUSHDOWN!!?)
2nd: DāNyc3 ( Whereās that 100% combo, son?)
3rd: ski
4th: Funk Doc JOSH
tied 5th: Julian/Ken
tied 7th: Orka/RushedDown
i think i was one of the forfeits im not sure i was way to smashed to remember
i remember playing josh and thats it
Damn, Justin Wong wins everythingā¦
Thanks Rushed.
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