OJ and Irrepressible, you guys should probably just agree to disagree. I would do this by PM but one of you has blocked me/all potential PMs or something. Anyway, as I’m sure you’ve realized, the two of you are coming from very different view points and it’s pretty clear that neither of you will budge. Not that my opinion should matter that much, but I think the two of you have made great points toward why Guile is great as a mid tier character (OJ) and how Guile can be retuned to a higher tier (Irrepressible). That said, the metadiscussion has started looping back on itself.
I read your post 1hitparry and I agree with you…but I just had to respond to this statement.
Guile has always been a rock-solid turtle’s dream. How can you honestly say that Guile is a high-risk character? He’s been breaking the down-back corner of joysticks since World Warrior and he’s still a good turtle in HDR.
He’s the only character I can regularly hide behind projectiles with! The Jab Sonic Boom is virtually a shield that you can advance behind with very little fear of reprisal, save for certain supers that give most of the cast trouble, of course. Sonic Booms, in general, are very hard to jump and punish because they are the fastest recovering projectile in the game! Just about anyone else has to fear getting hit by a dizzy combo if their projectile is anticipated. Guile’s Sonic Boom takes more anticpation to punish. So…what’s the big deal about actually getting hit once by a slide because you were predictable?
The Flash Kick is now even better because it covers even more airspace! Granted, the risks Guile take in using the :hk: version are there if you’re trying to counter slides, but, for the most part, having that move charged relegates people to the ground very quickly.
By the way, I’m sorry that you think that you should be able to spam cr.:mk: while holding down-back and be safe from everything…but even while that move has been toned down from CE to now, it’s still a very effective poking and zoning tool. Just don’t be predictable with it. Mix it up. Use something else with it.
Here’s what I’d like to see. I’d love to see a hitbox graphic that displays all of the space that Guile has control of while holding down-back. Give me hitbox graphics of all of Guile’s crouching normals, the Sonic Boom, and all versions of the Flash Kick. I’m positive HDR Guile has control of more space than VST Guile. Yes, he may be vulnerable to slides…especially the ones that go under his Sonic Boom…but he still controls a lot of space while in a blocking position.
That…is why he is not a high-risk character. The only character that out-turtles him is Honda, IMHO.
I think Guile is pretty fine as is, he can be a huge pain if turtled well. Besides, giving him more buffs will just make him even more impossible to beat against the weaker cast. I already have enough problems with Guile playing as Cammy, I don’t need more.
Guile is already one of the most well balanced characters in the game. Other than Ryu or Ken, I can’t think of any other character more well balanced. That doesn’t mean that Guile’s top tier, but that he stands a fair chance of winning against any character. His difficult matchups are not as difficult as other characters. Example: Claw, Dhalsim and Blanka are very winnable matches. They’re not as bad matchups as say Zangief vs Honda or Blanka vs Dee Jay.
And like OJ said, he does control a LOT of space while just holding db. Cr.Forward covers everything grounded between a 1/4 to 1/2 screen and Roundhouse Somersault covers vertical and horizontal space to just before half screen. Not to mention his Backfist, j.Roundhouse, Knee Hop, etc.
If anyone prefers Guile’s CE cr.Forward, then play CE, not ST Remix. Guile’s cr.Forward has been this way since SSFII, and it’s fine just the way it is. Everybody wants their main to be buffed to top tier, I wanted more for Ryu than just a fake Hadoken, but I didn’t realize that Ryu already has everything he needs, and that I need to take my skills to the next level in order to make his existing tools work for me. YOU’RE the one that should take Guile to the top level, and not the other way around. If Haru Tejyo can plunder most of XBL’s players with Zangief, than so can you with Guile. 'Nuff said.
Now that deserves some rep right there!
Your not serious man, have you seen how vulnerable the new FK leaves guile? what was the justification for having end up to close to the opponant. Furthermore the new flash dosnt even do what it was intended to do…counter slides effectivly. A well timed jab boom is a more effective answer to spammed slides.
Play against a high level balrog or ryu and you’ll see how risky every move guile does can be
Where did I say that you should be able to spam c.mk? I didnt even say that so why are you aplogising??? The startup time on the c.mk is so long that you can walk and throw guile (1) bcos it takes so long to start up (2) it dosnt even hit until its well into its animation…compare that to deejays low forward which has the added benefit of being a knock down
you dont even play HDR so i dont see how you can comment. I never said guile controls more or less space than previous incarnations. Plus I love the way YOU are trying to give me advice about guile gameplay…thats rich.
All I did was give some suggested improvements that guile would need if he is to become a viable high end player choice, in his present state he cant compete with high level balrogs, sims and ryu’s…when last did a guile win a major competition…case closed. I never said those enhancements should be introduced into the game, they simply ideas about what guile would need to be a top tier character while remaining true to the character. The more I read your post in regards to this topic the more I’m convinced that you dont know the character.
Please read blitzfu’s post. He worded what I had to say far better than I could. You’ve already been GGPO’ed. Let it go.
If thats true then a cammy player should not complain about honda…s/he should just up their game. Dude its not as simple as that. Nobody should complain about akuma…they should simply up their game. Long distance XBL matches are not a fair gauge with all the lag,roll backs and frame skips. Like you said, ryu already has everything he needs to hold his own against any character, the same cannot be said for guile
Nobody is saying guile is weak, but he needs some more ‘tweaking’ if ur gonna see HDR guile win some major comps
puh-lease…stfu
Guile still doesn’t have matchups that are as unbalanced as Honda vs. Cammy. Claw is probably his worst matchup, but does Guile have any other matches on that level?
Stop! He’s already won a major competition! 2008 Gamespot Tournament. Paul Eath. He played Guile and beat Graham Wolfe’s Claw. Hello?
I’d like to hear the opinion of some Guile players that went to Evo. What do you think?
I think we should all agree to disagree. This topic is getting out of hand, and I think both Irrepressible and OJ are cool enough that they can just drop it.
Topic change: I’ve been playing Guile alot lately and he’s really fun to use. His super is also the easiest to perform in the game. Time to practice my turtling so I can wreck havoc on all the angry nerds of HDR 
(Any Guile players feel free to add me, I usually use Cammy.)
Guile has very good defense because of his anti-air moves and his Sonic Boom is one of the best projectiles in the game. Irrespressible’s Guile is textbook defensive Guile, in which he waits for the opponent to come to him. I main Guile myself and play defensive when the time comes, for instance Guile vs Zangief.
I think you can’t judge Guile yet when some of the best Guile players in the world have yet to try HDR Guile. Muteki has one of the best Guiles in the world, if not the best and he uses ST Guile. His mastery of Guile is unmatched and HDR Guile didn’t get any nerfs he got buffs and comprises.
IMO opinion vega isnt a bad matchup for guile, I find to be pretty even, a laggy vega is devestating. Barog,Blanka and dhalsim are bigger problems for guile
Its certainly not as retarded as shoto vs. claw.
i’m curious, what makes you find vega vs guile to be “pretty even”? i find vega to be more difficult for guile than balrog. don’t get me wrong, balrog is extremely hard for guile as well, but if you get your flow going, you can keep balrog more at bay with sonic booms and backfists etc if he tries to jump them or get close, where as vega cant be contained so easily. in most videos i’ve seen of old st, guile is usually at the mercy of vega’s attack and almost always has to resort to relying on vega to make some mistakes so guile can get his offense going. and almost always, guile is in the corner. even then, vega can make a good amount of mistakes and still win, where as guile almost always has to play pretty flawlessly to win.
just check out youtube vids of muteki v arg or muteki vs noguchi, or kurahashi v. vega players. it’s downright painful to watch. those and the eath video, guile is on super defense in the corner - like, almost always, where as v balrogs, you can see guile players applying some consistent pressure with booms when they gain the initiative.
in the eath v graham match, the rounds paul eath won he just barely edges him - capitalizing on key mistakes from graham, while the round graham wins, he demolishes him. in hdr, i’m inclined to think guile gains “some” ground since the wall dive doesnt knock down completely (i’ve had instances where wall dive hits, and still i’m able to let the flashkick out right after and it connects - although this is difficult and inconsistent), and the rh flashkick gives him more options too as far as covering attack space if vega wall dives (kinda like how ken’s srk is better than ryu’s srk when fighting vega).
in the gamespot vid, graham also specifically changed up from balrog to vega - since he seems to think he’s much easier at countering against guile (and as far as i know, graham is deadly with both rog and vega so he should know that matchup well).
(at the same time, that’s probably why the gamespot video was more impressive back then since it was an underdog-eath, using an underdog character for that matchup-guile).
It kind of depends on the guile’s reflexes too. In the corner, claw’s speed and pokes can be difficult for guile, but it takes cross up dives out of the picture. At the same time, claw can always jump projectiles on reaction, and outpoke guile. Guile can’t psychic flashkick like a shoto since the recovery is so damn long.
I know sobat beats claw’s slide, but claw’s pokes beat sobat.I don’t think his overhead should be sweepable either. It doesn’t make sense with the animation, and its slow anyways. It tends to lose to a lot of attacks because of that, so being unsweepable wouldn’t have been that bad. Unless its better at max range, which I haven’t tested.
Still its stupid that they didn’t test his new overhead on blanka. :annoy:
The overhead rh.kick was tested in that matchup. sirlin said he wanted to keep the overhead vs blanka as is from st. blanka was able to duck it clean in st
Blanka should be able to duck Guile’s Overhead cuz that’s part of Blanka’s “uniqueness” in the game. There’s a lot of stuff that whiffs on a crouching Blanka: Dictator’s st.RH, Hawk’s j.Jab, Ken’s Short Crazy Kick, and a lot of close normals like Ryu’s st.Fierce. Not to mention Blanka can walk under Sagat’s High Shots. Taking that away from him would lessen his balance IMO. Just like Zangief and other big guys get hit by combos not possible on the rest of the cast, Blanka should be able to avoid some attacks that others can’t.
I think it more even with vega cos even tho vega’s offensive moves are tough, they can be traded with by using guile sobat kick and a well timed low foward. With balrog you have a play an almost perfect keep away game, which becomes much harder when balrag aquires his super + the fact the balrogs normals simply out pioritse guiles on almost every count, but this is just my opinion. also Balrogs low punches shuts down guiles low forward
I played Marsgatti alot today, the matches were intense but he dominated. I’m convinced that a Guile with great reflexes beats Cammy 9-1. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to get in:
cr. jab beats drill
sonic boom to zone
sonic boom + cr. mk beats spin knuckle
walking forward leaves you open to cr. mk (lots of range), booms, and everything
flash kick beats drill
st. jab beats hooligan
Call me CRAZY but I find this matchup to be worse than Honda. At least with Honda I can keep my space since he has no FB. I’m writing this because I think more buffs to Guile would practically make the match 10-0.