Family man patriarchy remix (Guile strategy thread)

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
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I watched the video again and counted; he follows up a boom at least 9 times. You’ll notice there are several time where he starts following them up but Balrog doesn’t headbut. As he does here (and as you suggested) he does a backward sobat kick. Jumping back is not a bad option either. Sure, you lose some space, but Balrog has to lose his rush to close ground, and you get to push him back out with a boom when you land.

Why would you attack Balrog while he’s doing the headbut? It’s very easy to backfist him on reaction, especially with the added recovery time on the jab and strong headbuts. The spacing is not tough to get down; all you have to do is make sure you far enough away that his headbut cant reach you.

Right, Balrog still does have to close the space, but he can do that with one rush before it is possible for you to get out your next boom. This is almost as bad has not having a charge. As you said, you can sobat him, but he could always wait a tad, in which case you would have time to throw a boom. It’s another mixup game. However, you definatly do risk something when he jumps through. In order to make the guessing game in you favor, you need to follow up booms with backfists from time to time.

It’s extremely easy to headbutt through projectiles with Balrog. Balrog has full projectile invincibility all the way up (all the attacking frames) on his headbut. The one time the Balrog player screwed up the timing on his headbut,it was an extremely careless mistake on his part. He headbutted before Guile even threw a sonic boom. By the way, that sonic boom, and I believe every other sonic boom (disregarding ones after knockdowns or air resets) was of medium speed.

At the end of the day, the risks for using the strategy you suggested are essentailly the same as they would be for using Muteki’s strategy. However, the rewards using his strategy are much greater. Not only do you rack up some damage with backfists, but you win back some terrain as well. It’s not good to be in the corner =)

Edit: Btw, IrrespressibleGuile, that’s just something you’ll get better with. You might be getting grabbed because of Balrog’s superior grab range, so try flashkicking and see if that helps.

362

you said guile follows up the boom at least 9 times. can you list the time on the clock where he does this? becuase i dont see him following the boom,and if he does, there is a good amount of space or he isn’t following that close.

you must be really good. from my experience, if you are too close, you will get hit by the headbutt, unless your backfist is at the farthest point. the thing about the backfist, is once you commit to it, you lose your charge. and imo you should be charging as much as possible. if you watch the vids or most guile v balrog vids. many do not attempt to backfist balrog when they are trapped in the corner, becuase space is limited. the strategy works best when there is room to move.

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These first to are up to debate whether he’s following them up or not, the rest I’m pretty confident about: 29, 41, 48, 50, 54, 1:10, 1:39, 1:43, 1:53. There’s no way you can interpret this as hardly ever.

With you comment about the headbut range: again, with the increased jab headbut range, spacing is a bit more leniant. Maybe I shouldn’t have said it’s easy to get to that range, but its not terribly difficult. Also note that Balrog will have most likely headbutted before you reached that range. Remember, this is a guessing game, and if he headbuts late and you didn’t follow up, he can’t rush in before you boom stuffs him. Its not a bad idea to duck too once you get to what you deem to be the right range. This way, the time frame Balrog has to fierce headbut you is reduced.

Regarding you statement that backfisting makes you lose your charce: that doesn’t matter. Most of the time you’ll get an air reset and have time to begin walking backwards. This puts you at about 3/4 screen and you’ve got a charge. Sometimes he’ll headbut so close that you’ll be able to sweep him and make him take a sonic boom when gets up.

As a rule of thumb, its generally a good idea to keep you charge. However, I (and apparantly the best Guile player in the world) belive that Balrog gets through sonic booms to easy. There’s nothing keeping him from headbuting every time if you don’t work in a backfist or two.

364

Python9109,
regarding strong buffalo headbutt, i tried it out and it does pass thru projectiles, although it is very prone to getting hit (moreso than jab/fierce buffalo headbutt). the timing to avoid the projectile is strict, and being so, most balrog players would attempt the jab or fierce buffalo instead.

regarding the times you stated from the 2nd vid:

0:29, he attempts to follow with crouching forward,but eats a jumping punch and dies

0:41, he attempts to backfist, but balrog is doing a jumping attack and not a headbutt. still the trade seems to be in balrog’s favor as the damage he gets is alot as well

0:48 and 0:50, there is no follow up. he advances just a little, but commits to nothing

0:54 was the 1 i noted in my previous post. guile is already ahead on life, and his jumping roundhouse is not a typical counter to the headbutt. actually, imo it is risky and if he was low on life or if the next hit is critical for guile where he could die, i doubt he or many guile players would go for it

1:10, i mentioned the sobat as a viable attack after boom, but he is not advancing with that move, rather moving back

1:39, he does a roundhouse sweep,but balrog commits to a jumping attack, not buffalo headbutt (imo, the balrog player commited to his attack to soon, there’s a possibility that his attack would have connected if done late). review the 1st follow up at 0:29, similar scenario, but balrog scores with the hit, instead of guile scoring with the sweep.

1:53, legit, but at that point guile can take a good amount of risk, balrog was almost dead and guile is still full on life.

btw are you on xbox live or ps3? i’d like to see our theories in action (guile strats vs balrog rush tactix). i play balrog and guile. preferably battle on ps3 if possible.

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It doesn’t matter whether he actually backfists for whether Balrog actually headbuts; in almost all of these examples, Guile clearly moves forward with the intention of punishing Balrog should he jump or heabut through a projectile.

I play on live, but I’m going to mexico for a week. I’m also in the process of building a new stick, so could be some time before I can really play again. In case you couldn’t tell by some of my frst posts concerning Balrog, I havn’t tested any of these things yet and I’m playing a bit of theory fighter till I can play again =) I have played agaist enough Balrogs and thought through this enough and seen it tested via youtube that I feel confident that these methods work. Might take me a while to break my old habits of playing balrog, but that will come in time. Online I’m PFW91

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i look forward to playing some matches with you. i’m not saying your theories are wrong, but they don’t necessarily work for me, and i’d like to see another guile player use them in a match. theory fighting falls to the wayside when a real battle occurs, and it’s good to see what really works and what doesn’t. i might not be on par compared with the balrog players you have battled, but i’d like to try my luck vs your guile.

tell me when you are ready for some matches. a friend of mine has an xbox and i can jump on his account so we can battle a few. i’ve played a decent amount of guile matches (i know his basics as well), and still i find balrog to be 1 of his harder matchups (next to vega, chun, blanka, and sim). from my experience, you aren’t afforded many mistakes vs rog.

incidentally,i discussed this further with a friend of mine (the 1 who won the gamespot tourney a few months back). in our discussion he too felt that balrog is an uphill battle. although graham didnt use balrog in their finals, had he done so he said that he would have went for gief, deejay, honda to counter - in that order, instead of guile. mainly becuase he respected graham’s power with balrog). i’m not really sure why graham didnt keep using him, but his 2nd choice (vega) was also a guile counter anyway.

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I’m not a phenominal Guile player, but he’s alomost the only character I play and I’m pretty solid with him. I think Guile vs Balrog is about even, maybe a tad in Balrog’s favor. Its no worse than 5.5-4.5 Balrog in my opinion.

368

I don’t know why, but there are a couple of Guile related things I’m having serious trouble with.

For one thing, I’m having a really hard time consistently landing the crossup short, let alone timing the first crouching short so that it registers as a combo. I either completely miss with the crossup or I’m too late with connecting the crouching shorts.

Another thing that’s really bugging me is my inability to end a combo with a SB. It comes out well enough, but I can’t seem to get it to land soon enough to count as the last hit. It never seems to want to work for me.

If I could just master those two things, my Guile game would be upped considerably.

369

Try using crouch strong after the crossup instead.

370

The cr. forwards are somewhat difficult to combo off a cross up. Depending on the character, your timing might have to be perfect. The standard crossup is j. short, cr. strong, and then if you connected, fk. If you didn’t connect, cancel a standing strong into a sonic boom for a safe backout. Of course, there’s tons of options with Guile’s crossup, and its sometimes a good idead to mix it up.

371

Just for clarification purposes, at what exact moment should I be inputting the Super motion off of the two crouching shorts? I’m having a hell of a time pulling it off consistently. Is there a specific frame link where it works, and how big is the window?

Also, pulled these from the wiki.

j.HP/HK, c.MP xx Super

j.fierce/roundhouse, c.fierce xx super

On that last one, that has to be a typo. Is it really possible to super off of a c.fierce?

[edit] Oooh, just found another one. Saw a [media=youtube]rBhB9Mx7UHY[/media] of the original SF2: CE at a tournament. Towards the end at 3:08, the Guile player pulled 3x Cr.Jab, then into a standing jab and into a Flash kick. How on earth is that done? Couldn’t have been a renda cancel, otherwise the last jab would have missed.

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I cover all of the cancellation techniques you need to do these combos in my SSF2T:HDR Combo FAQ on GameFAQs.com. Go check it out…and check out the info in there as well.

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Ok, for a while I’ve been trying to figure out how to go about dealing with the new projectile passes that Honda and Cammy have when you full screen from them.

Honda: Against Honda, I’m inclined to believe that you can punish his headbut on reaction from full screen with your backfist. All you need is a tiny step forward and your in backfist range. You can always ‘take a step’ before throwing your sonic boom, illiminating your need for walking at all.

Cammy: Cammy seems to be a tougher case. It would appear that using the cr. forward to hit her feet while she’s doing the backfist is the best way to punish her from that far out. The question is whether that can be done on reaction. I don’t really know. If you ‘take the step’ before throwing the boom, you do get some more reaction time, but I’m not sure if its enough. You might just have to mix up when you follow up you boom.

Of course, I also suppose in these cases you could just wait for you opponent to move forward before throwing a boom…

I’m open to suggestions. I’m really at a lost on this one cause I can’t test it against real people atm.

374

You could boom a little closer, hell ken actually does well to jab hado a honda from 3/4 range and then walk up sweep the jab headbutt.

Guile recovers even quicker, but full screen should be doable, id use cr.mk though, Ive seen the recovery of jab headbutt duck under high attacks before.

It might be better to bait the cammy, delayed boom will beat the knuckle as well as back sobat.(you were talking about the knuckle right?)

375

Stepkick has worked for me against honda.

376

i just flash kick cammy back fist, if she is in range, if she’s not in range then her back fist wont hit me.

Against honda, the simplist thing for me is just to sweep him on recovery from the jab head butt, from there you can make him block a boom as he gets up, or have a flash kick ready incase he butt bombs on wakeup

377

I still can’t freaking do that! It comes out so rarely, despite the fact that I’m doing pretty much the same input every time! :bluu:

This is what I’m doing, sans the crossup:

(:db:) :lk:,:lk: xx :qcf::uf:+:lk: + :mk:

Or:

(:db:) :lp:,:lp: xx :qcf::uf:+:lk: + :lp:

Half the time, what comes out instead is just the two crouching shorts/jabs, the other half just cancels into a standing short/jab, flash kick.

Is the rotation a cancel from the last :lk://:lp:, or is it supposed to be a link? And am I supposed to hit both face buttons plus :uf: all together at the end, or does it have to be in a rapid sequence?

Edit: And Why, oh, why, does J.HK, HP, SB always come out as a 2-hit for me? Christ, the frames are so strict! Sometimes, it works in the corner. Sometimes. And when it does connect, the SB forces me too far backward to sneak in a b+HP.

378

You can’t combo into his super with the new motion. (Correct me if I’m wrong but that was my understanding.) You have to do the d/b, d/f, u/b motion at least, maybe even the d/b, d/f, d/b, u/f?

What do you mean by a two hit? j.hk s.hp, or s.hp sonic boom? which part combos? Make sure the jump attack is deep, and the follow up is f+hp not back and hp.

379

Mmm. . . interesting. I should try that. Funny thing is, Event Hubs says you can combo into it. Or, more correctly, first they say the new motion can’t be comboed into, and then they say that the renda cancel should be done like the second combination I posted. Conflicting much?

Well, that solves that problem. Now I just need to figure out the ultra-strict timing on the J.:hk:, :hp:, Sonic Boom. The first two hits are nothing in SFIV, but in ST HD Remix it’s almost like a 1-2 frame link when you land. And unless you’re in the corner, the Sonic Boom doesn’t even count towards the combo because there’s too much distance between you and your OP for the boom to connect in time. Not even negative edging works in this regard.

380

As it was already said, you can’t use the new motion to combo into it. Sirlin programmed it that way. You have to use the old motion. The most common way I’ve seen it done is as a renda kara cancel using the old motion.

In other words…

Cr.:lk:(x2), st.:lk: (KC) XX Super.

You should only hear the st.:lk: come out. If you see it, you won’t see a super.

Remember that all jumping attacks cause 11 frames of hit stun on standing opponents. That’s basically like hitting them with a grounded weak attack. So, yes, the timing is strict. However, that’s how it’s been since SF2: World Warrior, so you have to get used to it. J.:hk:, cl.:hp: XX :mp:/:hp: Sonic Boom works outside of the corner and you should be able to add on any of the usual moves seen on my FAQ in the corner. Outside of the corner…you’ll probably get cr.:mk: or the Bazooka Knee (:l:+:lk:) to connect. Does the Step Kick (f+:hk:) or the Rolling Sobat (f+:mk:) work, too? I forget.

But…bottom line…you gotta connect that jumping attack DEEP, man! I’ve heard that SF4 has been throwing off a lot of the OG’s when they come back to HDR, so you have to treat each game differently.