@RECESSIONTIME I’m not saying money is a non factor. I’m saying it’s not the main factor. Because if it was the FGC would’ve died years ago, because like you said compared to MOBA’s and what not the money to be made in the FGC is chump change. Also “Most pro gamers suck at life so they prioritize videogames to make money” LMFAO if that’s actually true that’s sad. As for ChrisG’s “talents” In the grand scheme of things, these “pro” players are just playing fucking videogames. Their “talents” have no real world applications like those of an olympic athlete or strongman competitor so their “talents” will never be as praised as theirs.
People be taking this too seriously by trying to make a living off it. Have an actual career or buisness to provide income so you can use that money to participate in this hobby and enjoy it. At least that’s the way I see it.
Piggy backing off of @OrochDemon You can make a game as simple as you want. The learning curve of the gameplay which stems from the meta, naturally developed by advanced players will always deter new players. The main exception to this in the FGC is Smash Bros. And I have to give that series props because it’s gameplay and mechanics allowed it to find a sweet spot that appeals to casuals and the hardcore.
@ukyo_rulz Note how most casuals in Smash want nothing to do with the way more competitive players play yet they still buy the game. Why? Because they don’t have to play that way. They’re free to toss on items and play on the wacky stages and have a blast. Even with its simple controls, the gameplay has developed into something fierce thanks to more competitive players. So if items and the wacky stages weren’t an option, most casuals would pass on Smash because of the difficulty the advance players provide.
Notice how most people who rag on fighting games do so because they feel people use “cheap” tactics I.E projectile zoning, tick throws, corner pressure etc, and play without “honor” etc. If more fighting games had alternate modes or options catered to casual play while still having the option for competitive play, I think that’d go along way into broadening the appeal of fighters. Then with more people buying fighters, Devs can support their game’s scene with bigger prize pools.
Oh one thing I wanted to mention. A lot of people like to compare fighting games with shooters when talking about accessibility and competiveness. But here’s the thing. There’s a BIG difference between a game that’s 1v1 and a game with multiple opponents. ( This can also apply to Smash ). In COD even a complete noob can feel like he’s doing something because they’re so many variables the other players provide which gives him a chance even against good players. I.E having decent teamates to cover you, or right place right time in FFA. In fighters however it’s mono e mono. The only one who can help you is you. And if your foe is much better than you, there’s no teamates or randomness to bail you out. You’re just gonna get whupped. And that among other things deters people from fighters.
Uhmm… Isn’t Tekken very friendly for casuals? I mean the controls are intuitive and very mash friendly, you could continuously press buttons and attacks would keep coming out unlike other FG like SF where you somewhat need to time your inputs. And even the combos I find it much easier than other FG. I just don’t think there is no problem with the execution part in tekken.
About Justin Wong, I heard somewhere he doesn’t like playing tekken because of the sidestep mechanic which is understandable because he’s a 2d player.
Tekken fits that too. It’s very mash friendly which appeals to casuals and the competitive players would also find it fun because of how deep you could get at the game.
@Acrobeleno No it doesn’t apply to Tekken because like I mentioned earlier. The difficulty that comes with learning the gameplay and the meta and getting wrecked by the better players will deter them. A fighter can be mash friendly all it wants. But if people can’t handle the learning curve for the gameplay, they’ll quit. Unlike in Smash where they can put on items and all stages and simply have fun mashing without having to encounter the more competitive players, because more competitive players want nothing to do with that.
I think it really all depends on what SF does. Sf doing something kind of makes it “okay” and if Capcom were to go to a 4 button layout with one being a Special button and all specials were done by pressing SP+Direction, you’d see EVERYONE doing that. Capcom WON’T do that, but if they did, you’d see a lot of other companies following suit.
THIS! Wether people want to acknowledge this or not, Capcom and Street Fighter are pretty much the first thing that comes to mind when the average person and or gamer thinks of a fighting game. They pretty much set the tone for the genre. Look how so many who dislike fighting games always use Street Fighter as an example of why they think fighters are bad. By claiming fighters don’t teach you how to play ( lack of tutorial in USFIV ), and the use of “cheap” tactics. ( Projectile zoning, corner pressure etc ).
@Docta Mario If Street Fighter were to implement things from Smash to give it a play mode just for casuals who want just jump right in and mash, while still having the option for more competitive players, to play the traditional way that’ll probably make SF a hit like it was in tye SFII days. Of course we’re not gonna add items and platforming stages. But maybe something like a beat’em up story mode. Or the gems from the old Marvel clash of heros fighter, something so ridiculous that Casuals have fun with it and competitive players, want nothing to do with it so casuals never have to encounter the more serious players. If this succeeds, other companies would definitely follow suit
I can’t imagine Capcom wanting to put money into some of those modes, although you are right that they’d appeal more to casuals which is where all the money is. But they DO set the tone for the genre. and I wish they’d acknowledge that more than they do.
I think gamers nowadays are used to games being very plug & play so anything that doesn’t immediately close them isn’t going to get a whole lot of love. Fighting games tend to usually be more of a “grower not a shower” type of genre, but I think games like Soul Calibur bridge the gap pretty well.
I think execution should be as simple as possible while preserving the intended diversity of the game as well as keeping motions precise. 1 button won’t work well if you want 6 different normals. Like wise hitting 1 button repeatedly wouldn’t work well for combos, cause it would hurt the diversity of combos. Essentially it would be an auto sequence with 1 button, or the same attack repeatedly comboing off of itself.
Execution to set up barriers is just stupid. Reading your opponent, knowing opposing characters moves/abilities and how they interact with your own…that is the heart of fighting games. Not robotic/mechanical repetition of a combo sequence containing a bunch of 1f links.
Does anyone remember this old fighter Flying Dragon for the N64? This is pretty much what I’m talking about. A fighter with a mode for casuals and a mode for more competitive players. The SD mode has a RPG element to it in which you earn items and level up your character through fights. You can equip these items to improve a character’s stats or add effects like poisoning your foe, regaining health etc. But you also have the traditional mode without all that imbalanced stuff.
How many combos really have a ton of 1f links in it? Capcom added 1f links to SF4 cause they were idiots and thought thats what competitive players wanted.
Ok, Im gonna say something that will come off as elitist and like Im a jerk, but I think it really needs to be said:
Execution being a requirement to be good at fighting games weeds out the lazies who shouldnt be as good as a dedicated player. A lot of people play video games cause they dont want to work hard and want to goof off and not feel challenged a lot of the time. So a game that requires work and dedication comes as a huge mind fuck to them. “Why do I have to take a college course to play a game with someone? Why cant I just mash buttons so hard my next door neighbors hear me and win? Why is that dude doing bitch moves like zoning and hitting me when Im mashing allowed to win?!!” Those people dont deserve to be good at these games because they want everything given to them on a silver platter and never want a challenge. I said it earlier that noncompetitive people shouldnt be involved in competitive things and I mean it.
And if they did make it so combos took 1 button to do, special moves had no directional inputs, then you know what people would say is too hard and making too many people not play? READS! Wed have people saying that the games are too dangerous and reading your opponent if youre a way better player needs to be eliminated as much as possible. “He shouldnt beat me because he guesses right so much!” “This game makes people who are ruthless too powerful, they arent giving me enough options to confuse him and hes confusing me too much!” “If I wanted to play poker Id play poker, this game should hide my moves until they hit him!” It would just devolve into mindless nonsense.
Yeah it sucks when our friends cant hang with us because they dont practice and we do, and yeah we want them to be dedicated like we are so we can go back and forth playing. But if someone who hasnt played a fighting game before in their life beat you more times than you beat them even though youre the one who practices the game for hours every day, then these games would be a huge waste of time. There wouldnt be any point to get excited about winning, there wouldnt be any reason to feel bad when you lose, and there wouldnt be any interest from nonplayers to watch people playing for $500,000 cause players would just be goofing off and not taking it seriously at all. Actually in that case Evo wouldnt get over 150,000 viewers, Capcom wouldnt care at all about us to make a Capcom Pro Tour finally and Sony wouldnt care about the scene at all so they wouldnt have given Capcom $500,000 for this years prizes. For the longest time Capcom didnt see any reason to invest in its players until the FGC showed how important it was with Twitch viewership numbers.
I see a lot of players who dont understand why any nonplayer would watch us play if they dont want to play themselves. They dont get that the only way to get into the mainstream is with having more viewers than players. Why do people get excited while watching football or basketball? Because those are the best athletes in the world doing stuff that normal people cant do. People respect hard work, and they dont respect laziness. Video games are seen as lazy peoples activity, but if we can shift that mindset when it comes to fighting games then well break into the mainstream. If fighting games were put on network tv during prime time and a ton of nonplayers tuned in were told “these games are so easy anyone can be a master in one sit down with the game” then people would change the channel and never watch again.
I believe the hard work should be on match up knowledge, knowing which move to use in what situation, reading patterns and opponent tendencies, tendencies of characters, how to use meter and when, etc. That is all a blast to learn, however again the robotic non thinking part of fighting games (more muscle memory) is what should be minimized as much as possible. Again while keeping the intended diversity of the game.
Theres plenty of games that dont have long combos in them that people can play. I was kinda going on about special move inputs rather than long combos. I just see it being a slippery slope, because salty people are gonna have to complain about something. Its better that people complain about having to learn special moves and long/hard combos than complaining about mind games.
You could say ST is a great beginner game cause it doesnt require long combos and it has a small amount of mechanics, but it takes great execution to pull off moves in, especially srk’s. Maybe if Capcom made another ST like game with looser controls then itd be perfect for beginners? Just dont make it only slow, keep a speed setting in it.
Any and all fighting game should be welcome in any format. You have fighter lean on the execution side (vampire savior, those that lean on the mind game (Vampire hunter), and their plenty of games that does both (Guilty gear) or something different (naruto ninja storm/ gundam vs/ smash).
We need all these game to to keep the genre healthy and diverse. Each have their audience and their competitive places.
I’m not sure how the concern of becoming Main stream entertainment came into the discussion but it needs to be left alone. Thie ris time and place for this discussion but this isn’t one of them.This discussion is about the concern of “execution barrier” which I stated is an individual problem and their plenty of way of going about it. But no matter how you slice it their no easy way around it people will either have to be willing to grind out their execution problem or be humble and come to terms if they can’t or wont work on the issue and find compromise.
OrochiDemon yu made commend how people need to not have ego in competitive gaming, and yet your made comments that contradicts this.
BBHoody I want to take a moment to clarify something. While I choose myself to stay away from games I find “excessive” That doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate what those game do for those who like that stuff. I just made that decision for my own benefit not for my philosophy.
Blu-fang. As much as I love game that driven more on outwitting your opponent, their is nothing wrong with game that favor executions, execution is needed for to some extent depending how a game is design.
Skullgirls while featuring a good tutorial has perhaps the steepest learning curve. Not because of execution barriers (combos are easy) but because you need memorization. Instead of trying to learn many characters with short combos like in other fighters, here you need to learn one character with many long combos. Same for games like Blazblue and most anime fighters. Problem is, you’ll need to be in constant touch with the game or else you’ll forget whatever you learned. Also constant upgrades, like in Blazblue may require to re-learn a character. For some this may look easier than try to learn games like KOF where you need to be fast and precise as well. But those games are not for me because I tend to forget easy.
Chun-li’s Super followed by instant Tenshou Kyaku is even harder!
Bandai, fricking release Gundam Extreme Vs in the west already! I want to use Burning Gundam, Destiny Gundam, and Wing Gundam Zero in a fighter already, my top 3 Gundams those are. Instead you give us Rise of Incarnates. Had to say that.
And Blufang basically stated exactly what I want to say. Fighting games don’t need to become chess, but is stuff like Hazama’s Pretzel Astral really necessary? And instead of double qcf, qcf with two buttons like Marvel instead? And OrochiDemon, how do you know people will complain about it unless they try it? Simpler games like P4AU are easy to get into, despite the whole double qcf thing, yet deep enough for serious players. That’s what got me into anime fighters actually. I’m not saying we should all go out and play Ninja Storm, but what I will say is people are not guaranteed to start complaining about other things if inputs were made easier.
thank you for brining this up. I one point i wanted to play skullgirl very much but once i realize how much combo memorization came into play, is when I started to lose interest. I could outwit my opponent stuff but didn’nt offset my ability to do practical damage so I ended up doping the game. While it is possible to play excessive zoning i usually don’t play like that since it requires me to multitask spacing and input.
With me Having ADHD, memory lost, and having slow adjustment…(and a ego problem), Certain game just become to challenging for me to play. While building muscle memory helps this it becomes chore when you play alot of fighters. Not all muscle memory work well with one another.
