You sir are not lying. I’m just about done now, too. It’s been entertaining for a little while though, and who knows, someone out there might learn a thing or two.
Besides, someone’s got to do it, or else how are we going to stop that Sirlin fellow from ruining all of our favourite games! For all we know, he might be plotting to remove parries from 3S as we speak!
It’s amusing to see you people have the answer right there in front of your eyes and still refuse to see it.
The problem is not that execution is hard for new players.
The problem is that some players focus on execution before they are ready for it, before they even grasp the basics!
And all this nonsense about ‘the real game’ is the cause of it, you people telling them to not even bother until they can Korean Back Dash or do a ToD combo is the cause of it. The basics, that’s the real game, and that’s all any new player should be concerned with. The End.
JaceBuilder has already communicated my beliefs on execution barriers and I’m not going to repeat everything that’s already been said.
While I don’t agree with the extreme execution barriers (pretzel motion supers, 1-2f FRCs for moves that are suicidal if not FRC’d), I do agree that an execution requirement should be a necessary thing.
Tell me, if we have two players, both of equal intelligence/mental capacity/knowledge of the game and character, but one of them has terrible execution, why should they be considered equally skilled players? In a game where execution is not a requirement, these two players would be considered equal (under the assumption that execution doesn’t require intelligence and mental capacity, which I actually believe it does). They shouldn’t be equal. If one player is either more naturally gifted, or put in the effort to practice his execution, he should be rewarded.
I really don’t understand the viewpoint of d3v. There are already a number of basic combos that do decent damage. Damage scaling in most fighters basically ensures that the first few hits are the ones that are doing the most damage, and that adding additional hits will only reward you for slightly more damage. This actually already helps out beginners and execution deficient players.
This argument all boils down to executionally inept players wanting to be on even footing, without actually putting in the effort or having the require talent. There’s no justification for it. You want something easier? Do the available combos that are easier and do decent damage. Want to do that extra damage? Better start practicing, it’s not going to just get handed to you.
Because I was never talking about combos, at least not in my main arguments for the past 3-4 pages.
What I was arguing for is the viewpoint (again, shared by more than a few players and developers) regarding special move inputs and the fact that some of them are rather unnecessary.
Combos are a different beast by virtue of them being mostly emergent - i.e. developed/discovered by the players based on the tools given to them. However, those same tools shouldn’t be hidden behind barriers, at least beyond a reasonable limit.
Yo some of ya just be reading what ya want to read instead of fully comprehending what ya are reading. The reason we mention teaching through gameplay is because this is something EVERY game should do. Fighters for the most part are the only genre where you have to look up on the internet for just basic shit like anti airs when the game should teach you that. No one’s saying combos should be easy. Where the hell did some of you guys get that??? In regards to combo trials we’re complaining because they’re fucking pointless. It teaches nothing. Hell that shit is probably why noobs practice combos instead of basics. Nothing in game teaches anti airs or spacing, but you have something that shows you how to do a bunch of combos. So they probably assume that’s what they should learn. Lastly we’re not saying remove execution all together. Just make basic shit easier. Why can’t a fireball be a single button with a cooldown period? But higher damaging combos still require that execution?
I don’t really get how combos have become this staple of fighters. I like combos for linking supers to capitalize on openings, but after playing KoF13 and SG, I just don’t like long combos anymore. Training muscle memory for hours upon hours isn’t something I really want to do with my time. It’s just one more thing that takes the player out of the real game and puts them against a training dummy, and I believe the less of that, the better. And not only that, people think fighters are a great esport for spectators, but watching Skullgirls EVO matches is torture for me because of the combos.
So using SG as an example of the execution barrier, the game has all the standard move input motions, and they are super easy to pull off in the game, but the real execution barrier lies in the combos. You could say all day that people need to learn the basics and the neutral game, but learning these combos well enough to pull them off in a match is a requirement of the game. Maybe SG is an extreme example, but KOF13 is mostly the same way(albeit less so when you talk about the online play, which is all but irrelevant at this point).
There are plenty of games with less emphasis on combos. No need to strip down games that were never designed that way just because you aren’t willing to put in the time.
Would you complain that coca cola isn’t enough like a cold glass of milk? What if Coke and Pepsi listened to your idea and changed their recipe to suit your fickle tastes? Where the fuck am I supposed to get my cola then, long after you’ve gotten bored and moved onto asking for steak that tastes more like chicken?
whoa guys trial are not bad…Mvc3, SF4, and kof13 are bad trials. But ASW trials/challange gives you combo theorys.
I’m Kinda baffle how were still on this. Their really no right or wrong to go about this discussion.
I mean what we really gain by lowering or raising the bar of execution? Game are design for different folks. Games Like Ninja Gaiden/ God Hands were design for people who wants to be challenge, while you have games like GoW/Dante’s inferno where design for people who wants instant gratification. The same applies to fighters.
Can we just let each game do its thing and move along?
Game were design a way for a reason, weather we consider it Reasonable or Arbitrary doesn’t really matter. Let the game do its thing, if you can’t appreciate what that game does than don’t play it.
OK, there are plenty of FIGHTERS with less emphasis on combos and execution. Better?
I see no reason to change SF into something it’s never been. SF4 has already caused enough damage in this regard, then hearing you guys complain that even that is too hard… Just makes me shake my head.
I understand this perspective, but isn’t it a bit ridiculous to claim that fighters should have easy to execute move sets to make them less discouraging to new players, when some or most of these fighters have a difficult combo requirement for anything but casual matches amongst new players? They may as well just make the basic moves really hard to pull off in these games if the baseline requirements are going to include learning combos. Mike Z talks about how making moves require additional inputs for no good reason is poor design, but his own game is centered around learning long combos. Obviously just shortening the combos in SG would change how the game is played, but I’m sure he could come up with something, like shorter combos with bonus damage. Granted matches would be shorter, but I’m not convinced that is necessarily a bad thing.
I disagree. Games with long combo strings are just naturally more difficult to master but SG is still easy to get into and learn basics. But I do prefer less combo essentric fighters like Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, Soul Cal etc. You actually go back and fourth with your foe and must consistently outplay them.
@Keo-bas Actually there is a right and wrong way to design and market a game. And what determines that are results. And judging by sales and player base fighters need to change a lil in order to compete in today’s market. If devs just continue to design fighters how they want without thinking about the casual gamer, they’ll lose out on the casual market which is where the money is. The only way fighters can succeed like this is either by uping the price of the game or by revenue generated from tournaments to make up the money lost by alienating casuals.
Then stay out the damn thread already if you’re to smart to be bothered responding to us lesser morons oh wise one…Like I didn’t say It SHOULD be a single button press with a cooldown, I asked WHY it can’t be? There was your opportunity to present a counter point. But noooo you’d rather be a condescending dick about it. Good fucking ridance.
I don’t think winning is a visible enough goal for several reasons. First, it’s sometimes hard to know if you won a match because you’re doing well or if your opponent is doing poorly. Secondly, you can’t win against another player if there isn’t another player to play against. You can’t always be at a session or playing with other people. Third, if you never win, it’s hard to feel like you’re making any sense of progression after being beaten down for the 30th time in a row. Combo progression clearly rewards a player (more damage) so you know that it’s something that you did right as opposed to an opponent doing something wrong. It also gives a player something to practice that doesn’t require constant human interaction. It’s pretty hard to practice footsies or zoning against a CPU. It also lets the player feel like they’re improving something even when they’re still losing.
Sense of progression is a valuable part of fighters. It does not have much of a place in basic move inputs. It does have a place in combos.
Hence my beef with trailers showing off stuff that newbies can’t easily do, which then gives them a warped perspective on what they want to try and do as soon as they get their hands on the game. The basics for many characters involve special move inputs, some of which are going to be very difficult for a new player to get adjusted to as well. Which all of my complaints would go away for this issue if the game was able to advertise all its fancy moves without worrying about players getting caught up in how to do them in the first place.
The fancy moves could be made simpler, and/or if the balance issues that surround simplification are too much to swallow they could also be completed removed from competitive gameplay. The Arcsys fighters are an example of this (P4A, GG, BB). The fanciest stuff in those games (the IKs) are very rarely relevant in competitive gameplay. But they’re relatively easy to do and look incredibly flashy. They could probably stand to be easier, but it doesn’t require a god of execution to pull off Sol’s instant kill consistently.
A couple of things about this: 1) unless they do something extreme to pushblock and all sorts of stuff, developers can’t really control what kind of combo you come up with or whether that combo becomes standard for competitive play, 2) allowing you to enjoy the game from the get go and allowing you to be competitive with other experienced players are two different issues.
Your bitching about the evolution of the game as opposed to making things easier to get started. SG is easy as balls to get in but it doesn’t stay that way at the higher levels. Developers can’t really control that. XRD has been the best by teaching people some practical combos to get you started, but those aren’t going to really last you long (although this game’s execution is somewhat overblown now with no FRCs).
If short combos get bonus damage, whats the point of a long combo? Look, I don’t like long combos either, but that extra work is there so you get extra damage. While we’re at it, lets make resets easier too. Oh shit, MvC3 did that with TACs and that mechanic sucks ass.
Oh yes because 1 frame links, FADCing and no tutorials among other things are so casual friendly… Also there was a time were SF was very accessible. SF2 series. Sure higher lv play was difficult. But it was still easy for a casual to pick up. Same can’t be said for SF4
There’s stuff that’s hard to control from a developer point of view such as combos and all sort of tech, because they’re emergent. They’re developed by the player from the tools in the game.
However, there are things that the developers can control, and the argument that we’ve been making is that they should at least try to lower the execution barrier when it comes to these.
Also, the reason why we tend to use Skullgirls in our arguments, is because it’s something quite unique - a game with a high execution ceiling but a very low execution barrier.
It’s very easy to start out in the game. No motion is more complex than a DP, save for two supers that require 360 motions (which have jump protection anyway). But with those easy to access tools, players are free to focus immediately on the more advanced, executionally demanding things.
SFIV was huge success. USFIV is still a great success, with a good number of people playing it online everyday.
Just play online with random players and you’ll still see people doing day 1 combos with Ryu and having fun. Even to this day I still lose to people doing j.HK > sweep as their hardest combo.
You and everybody who keep saying bullshit “facts” about how hard SFIV is PROBABLY fall into one or more of these categories:
a) You never play the game and like to complain about (like MOST SFIV critics here), so you don’t really know how regular players play the game. Tip: just watch any random player streaming on Twitch and you see how hard and unaccessible SFIV is, how high is the entry level for a casual player to have fun… Hell, just watch Excellent Adventures with Gooteks and Mike Ross and see how many times the hosts and their opponents fail at the most basic combos and still have fun
b) You only watch tournament or high-level stream/footage, so you think everybody MUST know that to play the game
c) You actually play the game, but you either only play against good players or you’re artificially setting your expectations about your own performance too high “I must be able to do X or Y combo to play the game properly”
SFIV is as accessible as SF2 for a new player, if not more because of comeback mechanics that did no exist in SF2 and because of more flashy/attractive moves like Super and Ultra Combos, that does a lot of “cool” stuffs with a single input
@atirador I’ll try to show you the perspective of a casual gamer by explaining the experience some of my friends had with SF4 and other fighters. “I heard SF is like the greatest fighter ever. I never played but I know of Ryu and Chun-Li. And SF4 looks pretty cool, I wanna try it. OK where’s the tutorial? Or do you learn through single player like in COD? Ok arcade mode ain’t telling me shit. I’m just getting my ass kicked. Well I guess I can just do that Shoryuken move. It seems to beat everything. OK lets play on-line. WTF? Why is everyone so god like? My shoryuken doesn’t work on them, they block it just in time then counter. Oh now they spamming fireballs. How do I get around that? Focus attack? The hell is that? Why didn’t the game tell me this? Ugh OK lets try trial mode. See if that’ll teach me something. OK it shows a bunch of combos. Guess I’ll practice them. Ok lets try on-line again. Ugh I can’t do any of those combos! There’s never a chance to do it! Man fuck this lets play COD AW”
