Evolution of Fighting Games

Geese_Pants · March 4, 2009, 4:44am

Wolfrider:

I’m going to do something I haven’t done often here: post a reply. Usually I lurk the boards hoovering up info mainly because a good number of SRKers react like… well this… whenever someone attempts to offer alternative insight into the genre.

Some of your ideas are good - while others don’t seem to accomplish much.

In regards to leveling and increasing stats: I think it’s safe to say that’s an all around bad idea. There are numerous problems in regards to balance that levels would create and to be honest XP in RPGs are simply designed to mimic getting better at the game (since how much better can you get at selecting the word “Fight”?) In fighting games, experience comes from actually playing it and by playing it you’re going to get better naturally - there’s no need to obfuscate the system by adding an additional layer on top of it.

When it comes to simplifying gameplay mechanics I actually agree with you. I’m not saying that all fighting games need to abandon their 11 thumbs requirement - I hear SFIV is doing pretty well - but there’s room for other games to tackle combat in ways that are either a) innovative or b) downright bizarre. I liked Bushido Blade too and thought that its fighting system was superb. Similarly I enjoy Smash’s pick up and play mechanics and like the fact that underneath there is still some meat to play with. Just because fighting doesn’t require 8 QCs and a headstand to pull off a fireball doesn’t mean that it’s bad - or amateurish. Then again, you can have a “standard” fighting system that does the same thing. Virtua Fighter relies less on obscure button combinations and more on knowledge of the system.

Unfortunately the fighting game genre (like SRPGs and Sports games) is a victim of its fanbase. Places like SRK which function as hubs for the genre (sport?) are deathly afraid of new ideas and resent new members. It’s understandable I suppose - after spending a decade or more learning how fighting games “work” anyone’s going to balk at the massive shift that something like Smash, or Bushido Blade, or Powerstone brings. Why those two styles can’t co-exist (I love VF, CvS, AND Smash) I’ll never understand - but thinking about new (and crazy) ways of doing fighting games is the one thing guaranteed to keep the genre alive.

For the rest of the players that just insulted him for posting his thoughts a big thank you. You’re the reason why I can’t find ANYONE to play a fighting game with anymore. You make this hobby so brutally elitist and unwelcoming that you are the single biggest enemy to it. Maybe one day real innovation and experimentation can occur in fighting games - but I have the feeling that will happen only after you all have been driven forcefully into obscurity.

Then we can start anew and people will see why 2D fighting games are still awesome.

Wolfrider…can you elaborate why you feel that SRK resents new ideas and does not welcome new members? Cosidering that I see discussions for many fighers?

I’m curious…

raxzar · March 4, 2009, 4:48am

Playcircus:

Yeah, I’m new to these forums and basically signed up to share my opinion on this subject, I wouldn’t say I was a hardcore fighting game fan, I love fighting games more than any other genre but mostly I play them by myself, not against friends, online, or in tournaments, I haven’t mastered all the combos of all the characters and all that stuff, but I love the stories, the one on one combat, and the martial arts aspects

But it seems to me that the developers of all our favorite fighting games have made no attempt to evolve them to fit the next generation of video games, they have made no attempt to consolize them, the Street Fighter formula was designed for arcade play, it’s loud and flashy to grab your attention among all the other loud and flashy games in the arcade, gameplay is fast and furious so you don’t play for too long without having to put in another quarter, combos are designed for joystick and button combination, and game modes are designed for accomplishing quick goals and obtaining high scores

This style of arcade gameplay isn’t a good fit for consoles, that’s what people are playing now, I can walk over to my game system and play for as long as I want, the game is mine, I can sit and play it for hours, play it for fifteen minutes and come back to it later, I can relax and think about what I want to do, it’s a completely different situation than being in an arcade, I think that the next generation of fighting games should reflect that

What kind of changes need to take place exactly? There are countless ways to consolize fighting games, but the few key ones I will list down here

Customization: It’s my game, I don’t share it with numerous strangers, I can save and load my game without it effecting what’s on the actual disk, that means I should have extensive customization

What I really mean is, fighting games should adopt RPG elements, skill building, character customization, character creation, non-linear gameplay, deep story modes, and choices and consequences, long term goals will add lasting appeal and a more leisurely style of gameplay to add to what we already love about fighting games.

Gameplay Mechanics: It was cool learning all the long complex combos for your favorite characters, mastering the timing, and showing off all the cool things you learned, short gameplay allowed a quick test of skill, and the over the top moves gave us something to look at, but on consoles I can take my time and change my strategy without worrying about giving up a round to do so

What I think they should do is put the strategy in the way you play and not how well you have learned combos, instead of canned animations, let the player have the freedom to control his own combos, instead of hitting the perfect string of buttons, allow the player to throw what he wants and when he wants, let the player play defensively and methodically instead of trying to constantly attack, I think this will add more varied gameplay.

Style: Of course, we all love the over the top flash and crazy moves, but what if it was done with more realism? I don’t need loud noises and bright colors to attract my attention, I bought the game to play in my living room, I don’t have to choose the game that catches my eye the best

This would also mean realistic damage effects, blood, bruises, heads snapping back, limping, realistic physics, and no predetermined animations, I think this would add more atmosphere to the game and a more intimate experience.

Some other tidbits that we don’t need anymore are as follows;

Health bars: Instead of wearing down a health bar until it reaches zero, they could make it more realistic and show visible signs of damage that are caused by specific strikes, damage to limbs could have different effects

Juggling: I know it gets old hearing complaints about juggling, but it’s just not realistic and it takes control away from the player when the fight is already so short, I don’t know why every fighting game has to use juggling, it’s not like you have to have juggling for it to be a fighting game
**
Modes:** Arcade mode just isn’t cutting it anymore, instead we could have a large non-linear gameplay mode: maybe you can choose your opponents, maybe you have a professional record, maybe you can choose multiple tournaments to compete in with rankings, brackets, team tournaments, championships, and no playthrough is the same, Virtua Fighter has started doing this, I think it would be great to continue in that direction

Enviroments: Destructible environments, interactive environments, and more freedom, do fights really have to take place in a small generic area?

One fighting game I use to love is Bushido Blade, I feel like that was a consolized fighting game, you could fight really slow, fights could take a long time or be really quick, it had the flavor that we love about fighting games and just enough realism to make it more fun on consoles, and the game mechanics were based on how you wanted to play the game

I’m sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but I think there is a real problem with fighting games being all carbon copies of eachother, developers are resorting to introducing gimmicks like Star Wars characters, superheroes, and one or two new characters that don’t seem to fit with the others, why not introduce new refreshing game mechanics, unique styles, and make them more console friendly to reflect what the current generation of gamers are playing

Fighting games have decreased in popularity dramatically since the days of Street Fighter 2, why not evolve the formula?

You should stick to rpgs. I like to play rpgs too, but when im looking for a fighting game then it should be a fighting game not some kind of a wannabe rpg.

Slartibartfast · March 4, 2009, 5:01am

What you are having trouble understanding is that nobody cares.

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 5:01am

Like I said GTA, Madden, Fight Night, and Def Jam are not RPGs, they just have some elements, you know, take the best of both worlds and combine them

Thanks to Wolfrider for positive feedback, that’s what I was expecting when I made this thread, not to have a big argument full of insults

I’m not asking questions, I’m not trying to get anybody to buy my product, I just want people to see my ideas, that’s how you get your ideas noticed, the more people that see my ideas the better, I’m more than happy to discuss them as long as there is interest, but I’m not concerned with changing people’s minds or trying to convince people who play for different reasons, I just want to get as many eyes on my idea as possible.

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 5:05am

Wow.

5 pages.

SK is feelin’ mighty generous.

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 5:08am

Well, when it comes to “different fighters” I think SRK covers fighters that are in a pretty limited spectrum. IE - Largely 2D, sprite based fighters that have Street Fighter as their core. Even the popular competitive 3D fighters (Tekken, VF) seem to be less represented on the board. I’m not saying I think those fighters are bad (I love them) but it’s definitely where the focus is.

When it comes to new ideas and new members all you have to look at is the board’s collective reaction to new members when SFIV launched. Sure there were people who didn’t read the forum rules as thoroughly as they should have, posted in the wrong areas, duped posts etc - but that’s all learning curve whenever anyone joins a new community. Veteran members’ reactions though were outright hostile - moreso than I’ve ever seen on a gaming board.

And I won’t go into detail about the Smash Brothers issue because that’ll just derail the topic - but the way that game is received is pretty indicative of the problem that the hardcore fighting community faces with expanding from niche to popular (though hopefully not mainstream). Just take a look at the current Smash vs The Fighting World topic - there’s a lot of completely unnecessary and juvenile mud slinging that’s going on there. It tarnishes the reputation of the board first and foremost but also of fighting game fans in general.

Considering that SRK is, as one poster said, a competitive forum one has to keep in mind that maintaining a competitive pool is necessary. And that means bringing on new members and being willing to forgive their general ineptitude or unfamiliarity with a particular game or the genre in its entirety.

I remember first playing SFII in the arcades when I was really young. There were a bunch of teenagers and twenty somethings schooling each other with extremely advanced (at least at the time) techniques. I waltzed up, popped in a quarter and got my ass beat. The thing was, people taught me. Whenever my turn came up it was a learning experience - because my competitors took the time to teach me moves, strategy, and timing before laying the smack down. And one thing they never did was berate me for not understanding the game. That’s what got me into fighting games in the first place: a welcoming, friendly and supportive community.

I couldn’t imagine SRK (or rather than just attacking this forum - current hardcore fighting game players) reacting in a similar fashion.

FallingEdge · March 4, 2009, 5:25am

You post dumb shit, you get called out on it. Simple as that.

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 5:26am

My point.

TBurnout · March 4, 2009, 5:29am

Thats because Tekken and VF (and all major FGs) already have websites dedicated to them (Tekken Zaibatsu/VFDC).

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 5:32am

Oh I know. I go there, but you’re over simplifying my point. Those were just two examples - others like SC, DOA, Jump Ultimate Stars (stop laughing), etc. You don’t disagree that this community is insular do you? I mean, you can say that it’s natural or even desirable but I don’t think anyone would argue against the idea that SRK tends to be pretty closed.

Hatred_Edge · March 4, 2009, 5:33am

Why the hell do some of you quote such long ass posts?

That “snip” would be nice.

Pertho · March 4, 2009, 5:36am

Its not about maintaining a competitive pool; its just that the focus and energies of this place are targeted at something else than what new players are asking. Some topics could stand to use a some better explanation and execution stuff, but that’s why the wiki is there. If anything, the community (this includes me although I don’t have much technical information to offer) should invest more on improving the wiki and then directing people to it that just want the information and not the other community joys.

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 5:41am

Agreed. I think the wiki is a great idea, but I think the general attitude here needs some polishing. And maybe (given my low level of participation on the boards) I’m not even qualified to make that judgment but even organizing the boards around that vast gulf between “noob” and “professional” might be beneficial. It might even encourage new players to step their game up and take it more seriously.

At any rate - this forum is called “Fighting Game Discussion” - there’s nothing that would suggest that simply discussing fighting games is something that would be viewed negatively.

Geese_Pants · March 4, 2009, 5:59am

I have to disagree. I see 3D fighters like Tekken and Soul Calibur getting their respect around here. VF, Tekken, Soul Calibur, and even Smash Bros. made it to the Evo lineups this year and in years past…even though SRK was based on Street Fighter and its incarnations. Sure, some don’t have a dedicated subforum, but that does not mean new and different fighting games are not welcome here.

Welcome to the internet…forum rookies are always gonna get hazed. The mods here have tried to lay out the proper information on how to navigate around here: Wiki’s on the main SRK page, sticky FAQ’s, rules and FAQS on the main forum…but it gets ignored at times. I mean it gets ridiculous seeing 20 thread, each about the same question, when it was answered the first time. New people just gotta learn from that experience as well, and go from there. The way I see it is that if a new member can’t take the time to research basic questions, why should they expect someone to take the time to answer them…if the answer is already there?

I left out the Smash vs SRK part…cause I don’t want to go into that. I have already posted my opinions about it in previous discussions.

Wolfrider:

Considering that SRK is, as one poster said, a competitive forum one has to keep in mind that maintaining a competitive pool is necessary. And that means bringing on new members and being willing to forgive their general ineptitude or unfamiliarity with a particular game or the genre in its entirety.

I remember first playing SFII in the arcades when I was really young. There were a bunch of teenagers and twenty somethings schooling each other with extremely advanced (at least at the time) techniques. I waltzed up, popped in a quarter and got my ass beat. The thing was, people taught me. Whenever my turn came up it was a learning experience - because my competitors took the time to teach me moves, strategy, and timing before laying the smack down. And one thing they never did was berate me for not understanding the game. That’s what got me into fighting games in the first place: a welcoming, friendly and supportive community.

I couldn’t imagine SRK (or rather than just attacking this forum - current hardcore fighting game players) reacting in a similar fashion.

People are going to talk shit on the internet…don’t consider those guys SRK as a whole. There are plenty of guys here that are willing to lend a hand to those who ask for it. Sure, it’s sometimes not sugarcoated, but it’s there.

Also…and this is from my experience going to Evo and some local tourneys/casuals…people are more welcome IRL than in the internet. I’ve never really seen a noobie at a tourney berated for not knowing how to play a game…unless that person was being a bitch about it.

neroiscariot · March 4, 2009, 6:09am

You simply do not listen to the cries of the masses do you…sigh you are on a competitive fighting game forum. We don;t care who has the highest score, most completes, highest level character, or if you obtained the goggles of Snoorath from the Lightning Gnome in the Caves of Thunder. We want to know who is better than whom, and what we can do to get to that level.

Some games are competitive, and in the competition, lay the entertainment. Would you play poker by yourself (by that note, would you want to customize your cards and level up your 4 of clubs to god tier status?)? No, you PLAY solitaire by yourself. BINGO (actually you play that with other people too)!

To us, the single player is an afterthought, it’s practice, or time wasting, much like the solitaire you crave. You just don’t walk into the world series of poker and tell them they need to be more accommodating to people who are introverted “progressive” thinkers who can’t find anyone to play with. That’s not our fault, not or worry, and not prone to a decent response around here. Honestly…what do you people expect? To blow our fucking minds? We like the things we like BECAUSE they are the thing we like. I that simple enough?

P.S. Lightning Gnome is a bitch…he throws chocolate covered pretzels.

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 6:15am

That kind of reminded me of the Patton Oswalt joke, “Would you like some ice cream? Well here’s a bag of rock salt. ‘What?’ Well you take rock salt and mix it with… 'I don’t care where the stuff I love comes from! I just love the stuff I love!”

Ah… YouTube it. It’s funny.

neroiscariot · March 4, 2009, 6:18am

Exactly what I was thinking about when I read OP’s post…except his ice cream has Halibut, Cream Cheese, Avocado, and Grape Soda in it.

deadfrog · March 4, 2009, 6:21am

You know, sometimes I really feel that well-worn bath towels work better than brand new ones. I mean, that fresh, soft, springy cushiness is nice and all, and theoretically there is more bulk volume to hold absorbed water, but in practice it just doesn’t retain or sponge that well. Thinking about this keeps me up at night, and on some days I’m so stressed and bent up about it that I’d rather just shake, drip, and air dry when I get out of the shower.

aqualung · March 4, 2009, 6:38am

It’s not always about winning, it’s more so about competing.

To me it sounds like you want to win while putting in the least amount of effort possible. If thats true, in any form and im not saying it is, then you just need to play a different genre. :sad:

Fighters, 2-d fighters, 3-d fighters, beat emups, wtf ever, this shit is a lifestyle to alot of people, me included.

In the end, its all about the competitive fire that does or doesn’t burn within. If you have it, then the genre and the community (as is) has a ton to offer. If not, then you have to really ask yourself, why play?

System_1 · March 4, 2009, 6:58am

Maybe single player is an afterthought because no fighting game has attempted to make any kind of single player, that’s again what I’m talking about when I say fighting games have not been consolized, when you play at an arcade someone comes up next to you and you try to beat them, you CAN’T have a single player in an arcade that is deep, that’s why Street Fighter was made the way it was, not because they wanted to, but because they had to

It was a competition game out of necessity, that’s not the way it is nowadays, you play consoles, you play online for competition, in the comfort of your own home, poker players play online now, they play single player mode in a poker championship simulator so they can live the dream, poker video games include all aspects of what people love about poker

I’m not saying nobody should play online, if there was more freedom then I would probably like to play online, so I wouldn’t have to get good at pressing buttons so I can beat some little kid in Korea that plays video games all day, but when you own a game you want to play leisurely, for fun, not out of competition, that’s the difference between arcade and console.