Wow I’m liking Keits arguments in the last page or so. This is a fun thing. But I have to disagree on one point.
Well the most skilled player actually isn’t any of these things. It’s important to note it’s not the last two things, because that’s the more important point. But it’s not the first thing either. Or, rather, not always.
Winning and losing a game is related to how skilled you are, but it’s not the same thing. For example, let’s say I’m playing someone that everyone knows I’m better than, but I make a mistake and suicide and that’s enough to cost me the match. I’m still technically the more skilled player. Heck, maybe if we played 200 more games after that I would win all 200. So I’m clearly the more skilled player. But I still lost that one game.
Basically, the more skilled you are the more likely you are to win. But that implies that you USE all the skill that you have, and use it well.
So in short, the person who wins isn’t necessarily the most skilled player because winning the same as being skilled. However, winning is more important and should be respected if the game is fair. Simple as that.
You are right. I should have said “The most skilled player is the one who wins most consistently, no matter how it ‘looks’ to you.” Results are the only thing the game recognizes.
CPU, having gone undefeated and beating Ken in two separate sets was indeed the most skilled player at the tournament under those rules that day. And thats all that a tournament can EVER prove.
Unfortunately, in ST there is a fair amount of randomness. Known randomness includes:
* The amount of damage done by a move (This can be extreme)
* "dizzy meter" length. i.e. "How long it takes you to become dizzy"
* The amount of dizzy damage done by a move
* The charge times for special/super moves (Can vary up to 3 frames)
* Ryu's [cr.Short->cr.Short xx super] simply won't combo half the time, even when timed perfectly.
* Gief's standing 720 (He'll just jump half the time, even when timed perfectly)
* Who gets the throw when both players input the command on the same frame.
* Getting a normal move when attempting a wake-up throw against a meaty attack.
So is randomness being bad for a game on a case to case basis ?
I dunno, do you see ST players hacking the game to take that stuff out? What I do see is a game developer remaking the game under capcoms approval and some of those being addressed. But like Keits said the game was accepted as is and results were (and are) consistent at tournaments.
You feel that the amount of time dizzied or damage for example is worse than a character falling down at random or a character being given a instant kill move or continous frontal attack if they hit a randomly spawning randomly floating item a random amount of times.
But that’s just a subjective opinion of what’s worse. You can’t really decide that one thing is worse since the random factors will be varying in effect based on the circumstances where they occur.
And there is no consistent result since there isn’t a large amount of tournaments with items to compare.
And if the the random factors are “dealt with” in the remakes doesn’t that mean that they were indeed … bad ?
But the argument is that random factors seems to be considered bad in one game yet in another they seem to be something that adds… fun ?
Im pretty sure if Im correct that CPU was making headway even back in the melee age though he wasn’t at kens level and plus the fact that Ken got to the finals shows that item brawl still has skills involved, I do wish they would take out smash balls with the current rule set, because it takes all the balancing that putting items on did and throws it right back out the window, Im not suprised a rob won with smash balls on, he can get the smash balls very easily and has one of the best smashes in the game. I know me and my friends have started playing with quite a few items, and its pretty fun, smash ball and a few other instant killers like phoenix, golden hammer, cracker launcher are gone along with uber healers but other than that items don’t really mess with the balance or scrubbyness that much.
Item brawl no item brawl, I agree both should be at tournies, 90% of ppl seem to prefer items off, but items on still has potential and its fun, sometimes we play with about 2/3 the items on and I can tell you how much it effects who wins, well it doesn’t our win percentages stay about the same a few character matchups arn’t nearly as impossible due to items being around, but for the most part they are the same.
I love that some people enjoy it both ways and are supportive, but when you say smashballs hurt balance and then go on to mention the dragoon and goldhammer and cracker launcher in the same paragragh is lol.
I suggest you and your friends try it with everything but heart/tomato on and focus on solutions and evasion, and sometimes counters. trust me.
shari - you are the only one arguing “good vs bad” gameplay elements. our stance is and has always been, “its in the game, lets put our real competitive hats on and deal with it.”
You obviously don’t know anything about items in brawl or ST for that matter.
Akuma is banned in all st tourney’s because he is the poster child for broken, He has infinites which can easily lock down any character in the corner until they’re dead, does godly amounts of damage, and all his moves have crazy priority, no matter who you pick it’s a guaranteed loss against akuma. To imply that items are anywhere near the absurd power level of st akuma is ignorant, false, and a good indicator that when it comes to items you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Look at other popular games like marvel, 3s, cvs2, or ggac they all have their fair share of overpowered bullshit but we don’t ban any of it because the characters and tactics in those game as powerful and cheap as they are are still not broken to the point of being ban worthy.
For us to ban st akuma and not ban all the bullshit in those other games let alone the other cheap shit in st says a lot about how good st akuma really is.
Unlike swf’s scrubby attitude towards items we here at SRK have the “we deal with it until they are PROVEN as broken” mindset. The main problem srk has with swf is that they dismiss items as “cheap” and broken without providing any evidence whatsoever while a few of us here have tested items enough to know that most of them aren’t anywhere near broken and thus should be included in tournament play.
Like I’ve said before for anyone who thinks items are broken then prove it by showing up at items supported tourneys and raping all us pro-items people with whatever you say is broken, If you can do that consistently then we will acknowledge you or whoever else in being right as items being unfit for tourney play.
EVO had items and it was all the anti-items peoples big chance to prove their case and what did they do?..They refused to show up and instead of attempting to prove their statements about items they just continued to post online about how items are broken:rofl:
Look, while I support your stance against people calling items broken the fact is that among the more reasonable arguers against items-on this has never been the case. Sure some people come on various message boards and say stupid things, but I can find stupid things that people say on the internet to complain about everywhere, in any topic, and on either side of said topic.
Akuma degenerates competitive st and it has been proven beyond all doubt. If people were more willing to actually test and prove that items were as broken as they say they are instead of just spending time saying how broken they THINK they’re there would be no debate or quarrel in the first place.
You should re read my post and my other posts for that matter. I clearly noted a difference between cheap and broken just in case you didn’t notice.
FYI I think all items are fine except for starman, curry, recovery items (those 3 are obviously broke no one’s disputing that) and random exploding stuff.
Also I don’t care about items one way or the other because beating an anti items person in a match without items is just as satisfying as beating an anti items person in a match with items…either way the swf scrub leaves the match pissed:rofl:
You can say something like that about anything if you simplify the argument.
What goes on is, if something becomes so powerful that it’s actually detrimental to competitive play for it to exist, and not just in opinion, but tournament proven, then it is banned. Not just because something is powerful. Akuma ruins ST’s playability because the only match for him on the same skill level is another Akuma. No ifs ands or buts. And unlike items, this was not arbitrarily decided at the beginning of ST’s lifetime based off of experience with SSF2.
What is going on with items in Brawl is like people playing Akuma in SFA1 for 10 minutes, seeing he still has an air fireball and banning him because he was broken in ST for that reason.
Are you retarded or just a troll? Its hard to tell.
We PUT our competitive hats on and gave Gouki in ST a go. It didnt work.
YOU put YOUR hats on and gave items a go in Melee. It didnt work.
Now you refuse to wear your competitive player hat for Brawl, and are using fear and doom prophesies to sway the masses into thinking that you know items dont work in brawl because they (after 2 years of them being on in competitions) had to go in melee.
