Are people really still whining about items? They’re becoming a part of the tourny scene, deal with it and learn to play with them. Its not as bad as you think. if people spent as much time playing with items as they do complaining about them, items wouldn’t be a problem for them anymore.
They are? If so, what tourney scene? It’s definitely not the one that contains 90% of the Smash players (i.e. the usual no items, neutral stages stuff). Because, last time I checked, over 70% of the “scene” is entirely against items as if they are the ST Akuma of the game.
I personally can care less if items are on or off. I’ll willingly play both ways. What bothers me more is Snake/Meta Knight being stupidly overpowered for the most retarded/glitched out reasons possible (at least, with items off), but that’s more of Sakurai being an idiot than a community problem.
See the bolded portion. This tourny scene. All the people who are not as hot-headed and vocal, who are willing to play both ways and understand that there is nothing wrong with either.
I get what you’re saying about actually learning to use the items correctly and with the right timing and spacing. However, here’s what I was trying to say: It’s still not that hard to learn that, and the reward for it is greater in that ruleset than learning your character’s attacks and how to correctly use them.
That there is the rub for me: An aspect that was central to my(still) favourite game in the Smash series (Melee) is less important and rewarding than an aspect that was a non-factor due to how it limited the game’s true competetive value.
However, I’ve come to accept that how that works pertains to Brawl and only Brawl, so I’m not as mad about it anymore. However Brawl runs at Evo is decided by factors different to what decided the Melee ruleset. The fact that the Smash community itself is conflicted over the two games makes the Evo ruleset’s case more compelling, and I understand that. No more argument from my end.
Ken wasnt the better player. He lost to CPU twice (two seperate sets). The better player is the one who WINS, not the one who looks good to you.
You can argue all day that Ken would be the better player in items-off, but both of them entered an items tournament, so that point is totally irrelevant. Again, the argument has never been that the same people who win without items will win with items. It is that items-on rules will have similar consistency in results to any other fighting game tournament series.
Items didnt put marth at a disadvantage. Ken put marth at a disadvantage. He was predictable with his final smash use (which can be comboed into…) and CPU avoided all of them. Ken CHOSE to play Marth in this tournament, knowing the rules. CPU was the better player that day. No one is saying he is the best player at smash without items, but CPU was the best player at the evo ruleset the day of the tournament. Period. Subjectivity has no place here. The game only knows who wins and who loses, not who has better spacing and mindgames and all that.
Your comparison to CvS2 system direction is not apt, because if anyone here entered a tournament with different rules, they would do so knowingly and understand that the winner is simply the best player that day under those rules. Thats all a tournament is.
The community’s rules were NOT made for the reason of ‘so the most skilled player could win’. That statement may be true of melee, but Brawl’s rules are grandfathered in. There has not been years of testing showing that results lose consistancy with items and stages in brawl, nor will there ever been if people dont stand up and make it happen.
Again, the most skilled player is the one who wins. Not the one who you think looks more skilled, or might be more skilled if the rules were different.
To show that the best player did not win, we would need to run this tournament many times and see if the results have variations in them larger than any other fighting game tournament series. Of course, there will be changes in the results, as different players stop practicing and others get better, while some can not attend while new blood shows up… but you need to compare it to a tournament result set for anything else. No subjectivity.
Do you understand that? Smash item-less rules were created to test a set of skills that some people prefer to test. Saying that the set of skills CPU used to be the winner that he is dont count as much as the ones you prefer to see is very shortsighted. Especially since** no one on the items-on side is saying that items-off is bad or wrong** or anything. Its simply different.
I will be damned. You mean some aspect of one character is better than another’s? Holy shit. Stop the presses. Characters have different attributes with items in play! The game’s no longer competitive! The world’s upside down!
Who the hell cares what sets tiers around? The game’s gonna have tiers regardless, the only thing items do is change them around. Also, ROB’s FS was far from the only thing that “saved” CPU from losing. It was quite apparent that he knew more about a number of items in play than Ken and used it to make up for his shortcomings. He exploited a weakness, plain and simple.
Oh, and Chun’s SA2 is better than Alex’s SA1.
When you choose Alex, you know what you are getting yourself into. If Ken didnt know what he was giving up by choosing to be a Marth player that day, he does now. Game is still young, lesson learned.
And then he picked Wolf and still lost. 
No one’s saying they should do it our way. Never have, never will.
I’m not trying to stop them from doing their own thing.
They are trying to stop me.
I am not any less a smash player than they are. Your head isnt in the right place for this discussion. You are as predispositioned as a lot of the smashers are. They do not own smash, they own copies of smash. People exist, lots of them, that want to play it either both ways or with items. Why would you, or anyone else, want to stop them?
At OUR majors, yes. At theirs, no.
Smash with items should be a side event or alternate event at smash tournies.
Smash without items should be a side event or alternate event at SRK tournies.
Each group has their own culture, and each type of play fits one better than the other. When they step out of their one-game world into our multi-game culture, they need to expect a different standard and a different way of approaching the game. Whats fair to me, a multigame player, is probably insanely stupid and unfair to some of them, as one-game-players.
in the event that an itemless side tournament had been held at evo, it probably would have been bigger than the “main event” by almost double based on what I’ve heard/read about # of contestants at evo.
congrats to CPU for winning, it sucks that tons of people won’t respect you until you win an itemless tournament.
If you see both forms of play as viable why go with the one that the majority of proven top players do not play ?
Because they are only proven top players at the one they do. Circular logic.
Also, because even though I think Brawl without items and 3rd Strike are viable, i find them insanely boring.
So is it more that you find it boring or that they haven’t “proven” themselfs at items play ?
I find it sad that a 14 year old kid beat Ken by running away and camping the smash balls. Item play is so great guys. -_-
And I find it sad that Ken tried attacking an invincible ROB. Now he knows.
Ken should have practiced, like the undefeated 14 year old did. Its sooooo random how no one could beat him…
Enter the mentality of the scrub. Your move.
CPU capitalized on ken’s lack of experience with items just as how a urien player would capitalize on someone who doesn’t know to fight him. CPU was the better player that day under that rule set it’s that simple.
TF: Please don’t bring that typical ignorant and scrubby attitude in here. The reason we’re pushing for items play is because there are so many smashers who dismiss items without providing any evidence to support their claims. For anyone who thought items are broken, cheap, not suited for competitive play for whatever reason they should have showed up at EVO to prove it and what do they do instead?
“OMGZ ITEMS R TEH CHEAP AND TAKE NO SKILLZ AND I KNOW THIS CUZ I’M TYPING IT INSTEAD OF PROVING IT @ EVO!!!1111111”
:lame: