So if Vega gets his walldives going and Hawk manages to corner someone with a weak reversal, they deserve to instantly lose the round? How is that good game design? HDRs changes weren’t made for lazy people. If you sucked in ST you are still going to suck in HDR.
Yea Vega walldives is one of the changes I’m fine with. Not like it was broken but it just frustrating for no real reason. He does fine without.
Blitzfu, the rising Hawk is not an issue. If balance was the problem, Vega and Balrog having the most invulnerable anti-airs instead of Ryu and Ken would be much more an issue than Hawk having a DP-like move. Also, he still loses to Gief. If you find the loop a problem, you gotta find the typhoon with no recovery the problem, not doing a rising hawk as option select. If he just blocks the reversal he can toss a bunch of characters right after the same way: it would just reduce the loop to areas closer to the corner.
I’m not saying Hawk’s DP is the problem. I’m saying the combination of no-whiff Typhoon and DP is what puts that negative edge technique over the top.
The answer is to give Hawk a whiff. At least then, the defender has the option of reversal attack to beat the whiff, or guess that Hawk is gonna bait and do nothing. Funny thing is, even with a whiff Hawk is still tough to get off your back, especially if you’re Guile, Chun Li or Bison.
Just to pick at nits, T. Hawk was introduced in the same game that Zangief received his whiff animation, not after that game. However, this actually makes blitzfu’s point stronger, as it created inconsistency within the same game. (Kind of like Adon and Sagat in SFA: they fixed Sagat’s tiger knee motion, but at the same time introduced it to a new character, for an anti-air move, no less. Crazy.) Street Fighter was all about weird inconsistencies like that for a while.
If someone lets Hawk get in, they deserve to lose yeah. He struggles to get in against most of the cast so he needs a big reward to compensate. In HDR he still struggles just as much, but he doesn’t have anything really threatening once he gets in.
If you give Hawk a whiff, you really have to change how he plays since his main way of winning isn’t there anymore. But Sirlin didn’t give him anything to compensate, so he’s even worse than he was in OG ST.
And the walldives can be countered pretty easily most of the times if the opponent isn’t knocked down. Try to not get knocked down? I’d say that his highly damaging juggling AA is more directly abusable than walldives at high level.
Finally, most HDR changes were aimed at beginner players. So yeah it encourages lazyness. It’s not like nobody was able to do Hooligans, Chicken wings or 4 hit Machine gun uppers in OG ST. I can do all that consistently and my execution sucks. Why dumb things down so much?
I really don’t mind that Hawk got a whiff; it forces you to step up your outside game to compensate. Not having the option-select safe 360 is a much bigger nerf than anything he gained, though. Just because he doesn’t have a safe option at point-blank doesn’t mean his inside game isn’t still beastly.
His new dive is better against a few characters, but it’s not game-changing for him. If anything, I would have liked to have seen his midrange and outside games get just a little sharper to make him less linear and thus also differentiate him from Gief that much more. He’s not any buggier than he was in ST, by the way.
You don’t hear people seriously bitching about Cammy’s inputs being “dumbed down,” because Sirlin opted not to change the other properties of those moves whatsoever. Changes like this don’t encourage laziness; they remove the artificially high learning curve and allow everyone to use her tools more consistently. Now some moves like Fei’s CW kicks and Chun Li’s kick mash definitely were altered accordingly, and that’s a much more heated debate (and properly so). That said, it’s so ridiculous to watch many good Ryus combo into his fantastic super and follow up off of it seamlessly match after match, then watch people marvel about how a world-class N.Hawk player in ST was able to buffer a 720 off a standing jab from a distance just to be able to execute the move on the ground. I don’t want to take away from the T.Hawk player; that play was amazing, and expertly calculated. It’s the fact that he has to expertly calculate something in such a situation just to be able to pull it off that’s the problem Sirlin seemed to want to deal with.
Do I agree with all of the changes? Hell no. But HDR is a lot of fun to play, and very many of the changes have lead to a more balanced and dynamic game.
What? How does the whiff even affect what you’re complaining about? Hawk cannot option select DP/360; he has to pick one or the other. If you think he’s going to DP, you block the DP. 360 whiff affects this dynamic not at all.
The entire focus of your complaint is that he has both a 360 and an invincible DP that beats many other characters’ wakeup options. And guess what? He still does! But that isn’t the problem, nor was it ever the problem.
The problem was no whiff; no more, no less. Knockdown, safe jump jab, c.jabx2 -> negative edge 360 ending in d/b. What are your opponent’s options?
Do nothing = get grabbed
Reversal = Hawk blocks it, then punishes you, usually with a knockdown
The latter is what caused the problem, not some 50/50 with 360 or DP. It’s the fact that you guessed right (he went for throw), you successfully got the reversal, and you still got punished. That’s the engine behind the loop.
50/50 DP/throw is a non-issue; hell, O.Shoto can do that sh*t even better than Hawk. The option select is the problem.
If it makes you feel better, Sirlin was kinda going off of what Capcom did with future games. The changes were not aimed at “beginners”, they were aimed at people who might be put off by odd motions that are difficult to pull off on a standard controller (since, you know, the vast majority of gamers don’t own a joystick). It doesn’t effect people who are good at ST in nearly all ways (the easier SRK motions messed a few things up and I’m sure Sirlin would’ve fixed that if he was able). The changes might make a few characters have to slightly alter their gameplan, but all and all it doesn’t effect much. Unless you are afraid of getting shown up by pad players I guess.
I think I saw you complain about 360 motions in another thread, and you think wall dives are fine?!
Wow.
Yeah CW were nerfed, but he got buffs in other areas as well.
I would consider him better than his ST counterpart (And I use to not think so in the past).
spider-dan, I believe hawk was actually able to option select 360 and dp in ST.
Checking the move priority list, you’re right; 62348+P results in first priority 360, second priority DP. If the opponent did some move that made them unthrowable (e.g. blankaball), without a whiff animation for 360 the priority selection should just fall to DP.
That being said, none of that has anything to do with negative edge. You can do plain old 62348+push P and you would get either 360 or DP. So if that’s the concept that one wants to articulate, one probably shouldn’t frame it in the context of button-up specials (which have nothing to do with it).
It bears mentioning that Honda technically has a similar option select any time he has a charge (4_63214+P), which results in Oicho or headbutt.
your wrong again dan. using negative edge, if you mess up the 360 or the DP, nothing happens, which means no limps are stuck out to be hit. hawk just stands there all cool and shit, played off his missed execution like nothing happened. hawk is like the fonz in ST, cold as ice, even when he does mess up, no one knows, he never messes up.
Are we really discussing what happens when the attacker can’t properly execute a 360 or a DP? This is what makes the loop abusive?
P.S. Using the stated option select command for 360/DP, if you use negative edge and you mess up, you get a jump, which is not quite the same as “nothing happens”.
Jump or duck, depending on how fast you spin the stick and where you end the stick position at.
And you confused me with another user, I never said that the loop was abusive, I think the loop is great cuz I use hawk.
I was just pointing out that you were wrong in stating that the negative edge has nothing to do with the loop, when it clearly does.
PS. Jumping up and down is a big part of hawks strat, so he still played it off like nothing happened. Big difference from whiffing. And for the record, I like Remix hawk better. I use the whiff to build supers.
Perhaps you should read the thread.
The argument being made is that negative edge + no whiff 360 + DP = broken. This is silly, because 360/DP option select does not benefit from negative edge at all (if you can actually execute it).
Now, if you DIDN’T execute it correctly, then sure, you kind of benefit from negative edge (unless you accidentally jumped, which is worse than accidentally getting a normal). But if you DIDN’T execute it correctly, what does it matter? You did not successfully perform the option select, so now the opponent has a ~50/50 chance to escape (depending on exactly how you messed it up).
Actually, I’m a pad player.
If you had trouble doing moves in OG ST, chances are you aren’t going to do well in HDR. Most of the motion changes were unnecessary.
Yeah, I think walldives aren’t the worst thing about Claw. He can’t really abuse them unless you are knocked down most of the time. His scarlet terror is more directly abusable IMO, huge damage out of an anti air, and that got barely nerfed (just the ability to store it).
I think he got worse overall. He has a slightly easier way to get in, but once he gets in his options aren’t as scary as they were before. Kind of like Hawk but on a smaller scale since Fei isn’t completely worthless in HDR.
What was necessary? To a lot of ST OGs, HDR didn’t need to happen anyway. As has been said many times before, the motion changes are largely negligible to pros anyway, so why bitch and moan about it?
I’m not any good so what I say might not even matter, but I think the negative edge gives a big advantage seeing as how there is zero consequences for not executing properly. Also, if you do a tick spd or tick super, the only only way out is to do a reversal move like a dp, blade kick, or something to that effect. If you use the negative edge, even if the opponent reverses successfully, he can’t hit hawk cuz he’s not doing anything. There is no whiff animation.
So weather you execute perfectly or not, it helps hawk.
and to the guy that said “don’t fall if your playing vega”. LOL. show me a video of any player that doesn’t fall against vega. I can’t think of one. vegas round house sides pretty far and is safe from a distance, and he has up kicks that knocks down. the only way I know how to make a vega player not get a knock down is if I reach over and sucker punch him in the nose while we’re playing.
Balance changes were necessary for ST, regardless of what OGs and blind fanboys say. More interesting and viable characters = good. Sadly, HDR failed in that regard by generally making characters more uninteresting and / or not helping them enough (or completely ruining them, like Hawk). Bison and maybe Gief were pretty good buffs. Rog’s toning downs were understandable. The rest? Their changes were either poorly thought out or too small to actually make a difference.
Motion changes, except for a few instances (f, d motions mainly) were completely unnecessary. There’s no need to dumb execution down when the original game was (mostly) fine in that regard.