Increasing meter gain is a little overboard actually lol. His main pressure tools when you do manage to get in are a bunch of mediums and fierce majority of the time lol. 6 frame low forward isn’t a bad idea. It doesn’t turn Evil Ryu into a low forward spamming fest though. There are still many other drawbacks to actually using too much and the slight frame difference helps make it more accessible, but he still has to deal with a lot of other things.
I was thinking it over today and I took into consideration of trying to figure out what kind of buff he needs and for me personally at least, I just want very minor tweaks to the character. But I suppose everybody is different. I just don’t know what else I would want though while maintaining balance.
Here are some other changes I thought about, that seem completely reasonable
cr.MK
start up 7
active frames 3
recovery 12 - the recovery is lower because of the slow start up
block stun and hit stun reduced so the values remain the same
cr.HK
start up 7
active 3
recovery 22
far standing LP total frame count adjusted to match cs.LP but start up left at 4f and recovery reduced to 5f so it now +6 on hit
His cr.MK will basically go from a total frame count of 26 down to 22 just like Ryu and Ken but with a slower start up than Both (Ken’s start’s up in 4, Ryu’s starts up in 5), and his cr.HK will go from 36 frames down to 32. This will reduce the total frame count by 4f from both which removes the amount of time a character has to whiff punish these moves meaning E.Ryu can use these as pokes. Finally the far standing LP will mean you’re getting +8 when it hits on the third active frame and +7 when it hits on the second. This means he will only be able to combo into sweep on standing opponents
That would be a good buff to cr. HK, but a huge nerf to cr. MK. If block and hit stun was reduced along with recovery then it may not be a true block string and combo from max distance anymore when canceled into fireball. Who knows, maybe even cr. MK > light axe kick might be gone to.
As for Evil Ryu spamming cr. MK if it were 6 frames? My answer is “why not?”. If he’s a footsie character then that’s what he should be doing IMO. He should be spamming his best normal like Ryu players spam their low forward, Gouken players spam sweep, or Bison players spam st MK/HK. Except he doesn’t have any buttons that good for what he’s suppose to be. I’m not concerned about how this will make him easier to play, just about how to improve him without creating a imbalance and either this or the sweep would be a good idea IMO. Well their is always the “improve his defense” idea to fall back on. Just give him 1000 health/stun, same teleport as Akuma, leave almost everything else the same and call it a day.
the diference between Ryu spamming c.mk and Evil Ryu doing the same is that Ryu will to follow with a hadoken and a FADC cMK xx hadoken or a sweep. Evil Ryu will follow with hadoken fadc cl.MP MK axeckick c.MP xx DP, or can to stop that combo anytime to try a karathrow, and will push the opponent to the corner.
Other than that, a 6f c.mk will allow E.R. to use it better from a closer distance. The consequence of that is that people wont be able to bait the move and punish the whiff anymore.
I agree with lilevil that increasing its meter gain can be dangerous, but improving its c.mk startup will be deadly to E.R.'s opponents.
Evil Ryu needs minor buffs here and there, what he needs the most is that the characters that beats him badly gets nerfed. Basically his bad matchups are the top tiers. Theres another characters I think gives Evil Ryu a hard time, but I doubt that will change because noone at capcom will nerf Blanka or Thwak any more.
The other difference is that Ryu’s cr. MK is faster and can be combo’d into from mashed jabs, something Evil Ryu still wouldn’t be able to do with a 6f low forward. So it truly only becomes a threat when he has two bars. But like I said, it has to be hit raw, not from jab confirms. I think that’s enough of a draw back for the move that speeding up to 6 from 7 frames is a fair request.
If you just nerf his bad match ups from the top tier, he still struggles against other footsie characters like Ryu, Rose, Rog, who aren’t top tier. Asking for 50 damage here and 1 active frame there isn’t going to help him at all. The problem isn’t them, it’s him. So unless you want to go through the entire roster and see who needs nerfing to better match him he’s going to need something a bit more significant this time then far HP causes a knockdown on counter hit.
Evil Ryu can to follow a c.LP with s.MP against a lot of char. I think he can to do 3xc.LP, s.MP against every character I play against. 3xc.LP leaves the opponent pretty far from you, I dont think its that worse than Ryu’s c.MK for such purpose.
I really think he struggles against Rose. Against Balrog, i think E.R. is worse than Ryu, but I dont think the reason is the faster c.MK. The real reason for me is the dodging property of the c.MK, plus the extra life.
I cant see a clear way to buff Evil Ryu in order to balance his bad matchups without making him ridiculously strong against certain other characters. There are those life and damage buffs that Id suggest if I dont find any other way to improve him w/o unbalancing his 5-5s.
I think the only character it whiffs on, oddly enough, is Ken. Anyone not using this combo in that type of situation is missing out. I see TONS of eryu’s land a couple crouching jabs and then throw or c.mk. So bad to do that. He does have a hit confirm there.
I disagree about Rog though. I love playing against him with eryu. Eryu can compete with those s.hps and s.hks better than normal Ryu. Ryu just has sweep to beat them and if he blocks he gets a free dash punch. And if you’re trying to evade a wakeup headbutt with c.mk with Ryu, you can just straight beat it with either characters c.mk.
Well today’s the day. We’ve been going back and forth on this subject a lot of it’s pretty clear we disagree. I don’t think that 1 frame difference on the sweep or low forward gives him a bunch of new 6-4 matches, you do though I assume. You also have to consider that many of these characters may also be getting buffs of their own. So it’s not going to be the new and improved ERyu vs the current AE 2012 cast. I’ll make my suggestions, you can do the same and we’ll see what Capcom decides is best.
EDIT: Apologies for replying to page to stuff. Just clicked a link to the thread and didn’t notice there was pages of new material instead of a few posts.
Going to quote this so I don’t fly into an omnicidal rage from all the fast cr.mk suggestions:
69 frames is not the recovery, but the total duration of ER’s 3-hit fireball. Altering the recovery that much would make ER’s 3-hit Shaku faster than Akuma’s 2-hit one.
The startup is also the only balancing factor the move has. It has sweep range, leads into ridiculously damaging combos, is a true blockstring with fireball more often. There’s probably some situational axe kick utility I’m not aware of.
Gouken sweep is short-ranged, just so that’s noted.
… awkward. I actually like the Blanka matchup a lot actually lol.
The startup is also the only balancing factor the move has. It has sweep range, leads into ridiculously damaging combos, is a true blockstring with fireball more often. There’s probably some situational axe kick utility I’m not aware of.
annnnnd
Well I’m just gonna say this much about Axe kick. Consider this guys…
Medium Axe kick is a safe ARMOR BREAKING move that has GOOD RANGE and can lead into GOOD DAMAGE. Not many characters have that option. It’s not necessarily a spammable move, but overall at footsie range and considering it’s utility, I consider it very good still. Increasing utility will make it great, but it’s not a bad option now guys. I learned that from Sanford while he was in Queens,NY. It does have slow start up, and gets beaten out by a lot of other normals, but I just wanna let you guys know that it isn’t bad.
-keep in mind I said great though, I would like to be able to use this move more as a footsie option, TIME TO THINK OF BUFFS!!-
mk axe kick is, animation aside, pretty much strictly better than SPS. Then again, the world is full of fools.
Whoever suggested lowering ERyu’s frame counts previously is on the right track, I think. Making the sweep similar to Ken’s is also something I think would be good. I think ERyu’s oki isn’t nearly as bad as people paint it as being, but a safer sweep does seem like something that helps a tad and isn’t too risky of a move.
ERyu’s st.hp starts a frame slower than Akuma’s and the hitbox IS different. Akuma’s has pretty low priority, but the hitbox extends noticeably above his arm. ER has a ton of horizontal disjoint, but the vertical hurtbox is still bad and the hitbox’s top edge is right alongside Ryu’s arm instead of above it.
A 6f st.hp would probably be a good, non-risky idea, IMHO. Akuma’s is 6f start, 16f recovery, -1 block +3 hit, ER currently has 7f start, 18f recovery, 0 block +3 hit. Akuma’s frame data could turn it into a pretty nice poke - may not lead to much, but 120 stings nicely. Plus the fist to the face feel is just plain awesome.
I think he’s trying to say they are two different moves where one is not strictly better than the other because they are two different moves. Its like comparing a fireball to a dragon punch