I think it may be because you’re suppose to count the active frames with the acception of the one that got the hit, but don’t quote me on that. They should just have a Street Fighter math guide because a lot of people are unsure about this stuff. Like how hitting an attack on it’s last active frames can give more advantage.
Hitting on the last active frames gives you more advantage because the attack always has the same total frames. Frame data, though, always assumes the attack hit on it’s first active frame.
then wouldn’t it just give you one more frame of advantage or be equal to the active frames that were missed? Ex: Hit on the last active frame of a 3 frame active move, would it gain +2 on hit? Because that might make sense as to why evil can jab (+5) into cr.mk (7 f) on the twins and elena.
Just my attempt to instigate a discussion about Evil and my opinions on him here;
So Ultra has been out for a short while now, and I’m not usually one to quickly jump on bangwagon opinions so I never conformed to the mass view that Evil was super godlike in this version.
After returning to him for a while and just fiddling with what he has the potential to do I now think Evil is the #1 character in this game, sorry Yun.
It’s mainly due to his mammoth-like damage output when he has an FADC stocked, and the stun these combos cause. I think his buttons are good, but not the reason I think he’s godlike. I might be jumping the gun a little on this, but I don’t think many other characters have the edge that Evil does in Ultra.
And if I take into consideration DWU and that set-plays aren’t quite as strong any more, being able to dish out the damage all in one blow can be very beneficial. And Evil has plenty of ways to deal with DWU himself, as well as a good SJ and set-up game you expect from a shoto.
Conflicting opinions are going to happen, I am nowhere near seasoned enough to think my opinion is the be-all-end-all, but this is what I currently think.
To summarize simply, Yun just has a lot more utility than E Ryu. In terms of raw damage output, yes, E Ryu wins. But the amount of options they have in regards to their respective matchups makes a huge difference. Most characters have a better time dealing with E. Ryu than they do in dealing with Yun.
See, when comparing them for the top spot the two main things about them were Yun - Pressure, Evil - Damage. I went further into comparing and when I was looking for the character that was well-rounded, excels in an area, and has options against a variety of match-ups; Evil just seemed to come out on top.
Just when comparing both of them against the entire cast, I’d say Evil has the majority of better match-ups, because Yun has some very tough/awkward match-ups where he can’t apply his usual game and has to slow down, which severely hurts him. The Gief MU for example.
I think Yun is damn good, and he’s much easier to play as a whole and has a wide array of up-close and personal tools with his command grab among others, but if you were to put him in a match where he can’t properly apply his toolset, he could be seen as slightly lackluster. I just used this when comparing and it looked as though Evil isn’t harmed by a slower match, considering he can apply his fireball game and play an effective long-range game on top of dealing high damage.
If it were just a bread and butter “Who can do more” I’d say Yun, but he can’t always use everything he has, and Evil never has that issue. At least as far as I can tell.
I definitely see your point that Evil has a very straight-forward, and I guess in a way predictable approach. It’s mainly just focus attack, dive kick, cr.mk, or a sweep into knockdown pressure that he has under his belt to actually get in and apply his damage.
Evil Ryu can’t c.mk xx fireball vs. vega.
E Ryu struggles against characters like Rose, Bison, Vega, Balrog, and possibly OG Ryu, Dhalsim, Chun, and Blanka. As far as I’ve heard, Yun only really struggles against T. Hawk and Zangief, and possibly Hugo. Hell, MMG Julio says that Yun wins against E. Ryu.
Idk what you compared, but Yun definitely has the better utility.
Seriously, “Yun…can’t always use everything he has and Evil never has this issue.” That probably bugs me the most. E. Ryu vs Rose is probably the most obvious matchup in which E. Ryu’s main go-to options are limited.
Also, MMG Julio’s MU list for Yun: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/share/?user=MMG_Julio&char=64
I have been looking up more insightful information as of recent, from offline high level perspectives instead of my online experiences, and I’m definitely starting to think I was a little quick to assume with this.
I still hold true to Yun not always being able to use what he has, he can definitely be limited with proper counter measures.
I’ve heard Vega, Bison and Rose are bad MUs but no major complaints about those other few as of yet on my end. The bad grappler MU was my main reasoning behind me rating one over the other, he seems very weak and Evil’s bad MUs don’t look catastrophic, they’re definitely winnable. Vega is very tough for me personally though.
I think my opinion stems from a large amount of online play, and it’s a completely different experience compared to offline play. I can’t recall an opponent shutting down my obvious options and a lot of the time cr.mk is a completely riskless option with no counter from the other player.
I still think Evil can COMPETE for #1, he isn’t a dead horse in the race. Lets not go overboard and make him look bad, I play DeeJay primarily and playing Evil felt ludicrous in terms of damage(And having a reversal).
Cheers for the feedback anyway, definitely feel like I have a more grounded opinion on the matter now.
Lol I’m not trying to say E. Ryu is bad, I’m just saying some characters have the tools to shut down his game with ease. For example, Vega can punish cr.MK > Fireball on block. He’s also really difficult to whiff punish. Rose can blow up most of E. Ryu’s footsie tools with her own. I also feel that Rose’s footsie options give her a lot of variability in the way she is played, which is why I often lose short sets against Rose players I’ve never played before. Lol. I personally have trouble playing footsies against Blanka. I pretty much just try to spam st.MK to whiff punish his pokes all day.
Yun has a lot of variability in his high-damage offense and I think that’s why he’s considered “broken.” Yun’s footsies are no joke. My friend, a Yun main since Super, says his only bad matchups are grapplers because if he accidentally hits too high on a dive kick, he gets command grabbed.
I’m not as heavily invested into Yun as much as other characters, but the only bad MUs I’ve ever heard about that really impede Yun’s offense are grapplers honestly just because of divekick being worse and wake-up needing to be respected a little more.
Apart from that, Yun seems stronger in most MUs. He just has a really hard time against some specific characters.
Personally I believe E Ryu is mid-tier. I just think a lot of people let evil’s get away with murder. For example Evil is the only character I know with untrue-true block strings. He really only has three tools: cr.mk, s.mk (really good), and f.mk. He has a weakness for mids under 7 frames because they come out before cr.mk, s.mk, and they beat f.mk which comes out it like 16 frames. This is why I think vega is a hard match. I think a lot of people lose to Evil because they don’t respect him and play against him like he was someone else.
Now I believe that Yun is hands down the best character in the game, not because he has good match ups, but because he has the most tools out of any character in the game. His cr.mk is decent, lk is great for whiff punishing because it doesn’t a far version, has a dive kick, command grab, and respectable specials, they might be slow, but they still have to be respected. I personally don’t understand why Yuns lose most of the time. If they played Yun like Ryu, they’d probably be winning majors. I’m not saying that Yun is easy mode, but he has answers for enough situations to where the player should just wait and react appropriately.
For me personally to give Yun a bad match up, you’d have to be him in the air (his dive kick) and on the ground. I think of Yun as a weaponized Makoto, like they combined her with Dudley, and I think that’s why people prefer evil. With Evil, you can just play solid and do 50% when your opponent’s forgets to block low, but with Yun his damage is more from pressure with mix ups and counter hits, and that can be stressful with dp’s. Yun has the tools to get more openings, Evil requires less openings to get the kill. That’s why I think Evil wins more consistently, I just feel like Yun is the better of the two.
E. Ryu is definitely not mid-tier. A lot of people definitely downplay his weaknesses, but that doesn’t make him mid-tier.
Footsie tools you didn’t mention:
- st.MP - 5 frame startup, cancellable, hits crouching opponents from a good range
- cr.MP - 4 frame startup, linkable, cancellable
- Dive kick. Nothing like Rufus’ or the twins but nonetheless, it’s good for pressure and mixups.
Vega is a hard matchup because he punishes low forward fireball on block. You can’t whiff punish him the way he can do it to you, and weird issues come up when you try to anti-air him sometimes. You pretty much have to play like Ryu against him, except it’s easier in the regard that you have a dive kick.
Yun really only loses to grapplers because poorly placed dive kicks result in them getting command grabbed. They don’t have the ground game (walk speed, normals) necessary for them to not rely on dive kicks.
- It cancels into light axe kick/fireball. How many high level matches have you seen s.mp be a game changer. I know it could be used for whiff punishing, but if you’re too close you get cl.mp which is one evil’s best moves instead. It’s a high so it can be ducked, and then you would get whiff punished. The only true purpose I see for s.mp is to come after cr.mk fireball fadc when you’re too far to land cl.hp, but even then you could cr.mk again into another combo.
- Don’t all shotos have that? I do think it’s amazing that Evil is standard up close and still has buttons that are effective at longer ranges, but I could say the same for Ken, who has more tools to open up the opponent.
- I swear (haven’t tested it) that there is a timing where people (most characters) can anti-air in a way where they will hit you whether you dive kick or do a jump in. I believe the dive kick is something that a player makes work, I don’t think it’s powerful enough to give the character credit for it.
I just don’t see Evil winning enough match ups to be top tier, especially not enough to be 2nd in the game. He loses to characters who out space him because all he can do is dive kick and cr.mk. S.mk is great, but if they focus it or block it, they get the momentum back, unless you want to be your life on a dp. Ex axe only works on terrified opponents, they could grab or hit you out of it, or just block high and punish you.
I’ve studied Daigo’s matches, and people just walk into his low forwards. I think Daigo is why a lot of people think Evil is so great. I’m not saying he’s bad by any means. I’m just saying he’s limited, and Daigo’s reads plus Evil’s damage make a sick combination, but Daigo aside, I still don’t think people know how to fight Evil. They don’t know what the axe kick block strings are, don’t know what ranges to stand at. Just outside of cr.mk range you can focus and destroy f.mk and gain advantage with a lvl2 on block vs. a s.mk and you’re out of range of cr.mk fireball. I’ve yet to see a player do this, but almost know one does it. Evil has big damage, but doesn’t have any special way to get in besides a dive kick that will get blown up if they respect it, best whiff punishing tool is s.mp, which isn’t a very good one compared to what other characters have at their disposal. Besides damage I just don’t see what makes him, so great because his tools for landing said damage aren’t that great.
Against poison, you should always go for a Cl.MK after a MK Axe kick as it always comes out, is 3 frames (easier link then cr.mp), and does more damage then cr.mp.
And if you do MK Axe kick, cr.lp, st.mp xx hado fadc u2
it combos on poison since the hado lands meaty giving you extra frame advantage
So if standard BNB from a cr.mk xx hado is
Cr.mk xx hado FADC Cl.Hp xx Mk Axe kick, Cr.Mp xx Lk Tatus, Sweep
367 damage, 555 stun
or
cr.mk xx hado FADC cl.hp xx mk axe kick, cr.mp xx lk tatsu, hp dp
391 damage, 595 stun
on poison doing these are better:
Cr.Mk xx Hado FADC Cl.Hp xx Mk Axe kick, Cl.Mk xx Lk Tatsu, Sweep
380 damage, 555 stun
Cr.mk xx hado FADC cl.hp xx mk axe kick, cl.mk xx lk tatsu, hp dp
403 damage, 595 stun
also
J.HK, Cl.HP xx MK Axe kick, Cr.lp, St.MP xx Hado FADC U2
520 damage, 625 stun
oh and LP DP > U1 juggles in the corner
J.HK, Cl.HP xx MK Axe Kick, Cl.MK xx Lk Tatsu, Lp DP, U1
517 Damage, 610 stun
- I’ve seen plenty of matches where st.MP is a game changer. If you’re too close, you could get cl.MP, but when you’re at that distance, you might as well press that button since it will always land and never whiff, making your point null. It can’t be ducked, this move hits crouching characters, which adds a lot to its viability, and eliminates the possibility of you getting whiff punished by an opponent on the basis of whether or not they were standing or crouching.
- Yes, the other shotos have it, but what’s your point? Is it or is it not a great footsie tool?
- It depends on the other character’s move. If the other character has a DP, then yes, there is a timing that can hit both dive kicks and normal jump-ins. If the other character uses a normal, then they have a much harder time adjusting to the dive kick. Outside of that, the utility of the dive kick goes beyond jump ins. You can close the distance against characters who outzone you, like Dhalsim, Juri, and Guile, without having to commit to an actual jump in. You can fake cross ups. You can condition the opponent to expect the fake cross up. In layman’s terms, having a dive kick increases the amount of pressure and the amount of pressure options you can use against your opponent.
- If people are countering your st.MK, that’s why you have your other footsie options that I mentioned above. If they focus it, you have ways to beat focus. If they are blocking it, stand in that spacing where you’d normally press st.MK, and walk up and throw. Making guesses and reads in the neutral game is part of footsies. Lol and don’t rely on EX Axe Kick. You have to condition your opponent first.
- I’m pretty sure that the other high-level players that go against Daigo know what E. Ryu’s block strings are.
- st.MP as a whiff punish tool can lead to light axe kick FADC combos for about 300 damage. Also, it hits crouching. That makes it a great tool.
- If you’re not in range to cr.MK fireball, then just throw a fireball instead.
You’re listing a lot of things that are simply a part of the game. You want to play a game of rock, paper, scissors, but without the inconvenience of having to make a read. Essentially, you want a character or a button, that beats out all of your opponents’ and that’s not gonna happen, whether your character is mid-tier, top-tier, or god-tier.
^^^^ well put.
kitasenjuDJ vs ebihara 【FT10】
KitasenjuDJ is Strongest Deejey in Japan
Ebihara is strongest Ibuki in Japan
I feel like a idiot for asking this. But I was messing with Omega Evil Ryu and finally discovered this new special move, it’s like a mini raging demon. You do a DP motion with any single kick button to activate it. He’ll move forward like he’s teleporting, grab his opponent, and then stomp the ground(similar to the EX axe kick) and send his opponent flying. I’ve tried to FADC it and juggle it in the corner but nothing works. I think it’s grab invincible when you get to the grabbing part of it, but you can be thrown during the floaty art of it. Every version does 130 damage and 250 stun, the different strengths causes different knock away distance. The light one seems great for setting up a ambiguous jump in.
Basically did you guys know about this already because I swear I never heard of this move until now. And I know it’s Omega so who cares, but man it would have been really sweet to have this move in the actual game. It would have opened up some really good opportunities. In the end I think it would have made Evil Ryu too good if this were one of his regular moves in the current game.
@Rice_Eater Yeah, I can’t kara my damn DP no more because of it. You have to use the EX Version to Do a Ultra 1 U2 or a DP etc. All others, you can’t do anything after FADC.