I added a glob of text to the advanced strategy splitting it into what IMO are the 3 main styles of play Gief has to deal with. At the end of every option there is a decription of what the down-side of that tactic is.
EDIT: Sorry, but I removed what was there earlier, though it was funny it wasn’t very useful IMO ><
try finding that “ode to the 2-hit combo” video, it has gief doing deep headbutt into jump instant headbutt for dizzy. 40 stun x2 dizzies everyone in the game.
Let me smoke some herb first!.. and play me K-Zangief…:looney:
Giefs best grooves besides K?
Id say in order - K, N, C, P, S, A
K is ovbious - JD into 360 is hella good. JD lets him jump in a little more lenient and he can walk up jd - 360 if in range. Scary with rage
N - RC Lariat for perfect anti air, pop tricks, stored super, cant jump anymore
C - RC lariat for perfect anti air, no one jumps on gief with level 3 , hard time getting in without lucky roll
P - parry into 360 = half assed jd into 360. takes forever to build a bar on something that is almost never guaranteed.
S - only has level 3’s when dead, dodge xx 360 is OKAY at best but gets old fast. level 1 anti air super blows
A - no good custom, a bunch of other better battieres. level 1’s arent good at all. nothing going for him here but RC’s which he gets in N and C
i think it would be k,p, then c, n and a
I would rank Gief’s best grooves as K, C, P, N, A, S. In order to understand this, I think you have to accept that some common assumptions about Gief are wrong:
Think of how you play against Gief. Since classic, the main objective when going up against Gief is to keep him the fuck out. His most threatening weapon is his SPD. Keep him out of its range and you’re halfway on the way to winning the match. That being said, you can understand why this assumption is wrong (well, half wrong). If the opponent is playing the game correctly, if I JD or parry, I will be out of range for my SPD. K and P ARE good for Gief, but it’s not because of the JD/parry -> SPD factor. The two grooves are good for Gief because it allows Gief to theoretically jump in for free (sans air grabs). This allows Gief to be more mobile by giving him the option of jumping in. What gives K the advantage over P is obvious - more level 3s per round, increased damage when raged (esp. with grabs - as the natural reaction against a raged opponent is to sit there and block), and run. However, run on its own does not make Gief better. In fact, I believe it makes him worse. What run gives to K is the opening to actually USE the JD -> SPD factor. Running in lets Gief close the distance while still being grounded. He can get into the range of the SPD a lot easier, and with good reactions/anticipation, can JD attacks to lead to an SPD. P has dash, which by itself is good - but he is airborne during the dash so it cannot be combined with parry.
I don’t know where the assumption that Gief’s level ones are worthless came from, but I think it was from someone who doesn’t play Gief. Gief’s AIR SUPER is pretty worthless at level 1, but his FAB is VERY good at level 1. It offers a longer reach than an SPD and is also harder to jump out of. This, combined with RCs, gives the edge to C over P, IMO. They both have a stored level 3 and dash, so the differences are in the presence/lack of low jump, parry, and roll, and the difference in the meter. Low jump is good, that’s not under question. What you should be asking is how good is it? The parry issue was addressed above. I believe that rolls and the meter difference do more than enough to make up for the lack of a low jump in C. Rolls, in moderation, are the best way to put Gief in range for his SPD. Rolling is especially effective against projectiles, when spaced correctly. Plus, rolling = RCs. The difference in meter means that Gief has the threat of an FAB for more of the match, PLUS he can AC out of pressure situations. This gives the edge to C for second, but P is a close third.
N is fourth because it basically isn’t K, C, or P. Rolls/RCs, low jump, and the presence of a level 3 all place them above A and S. Even though I use A-Gief, I wouldn’t place him over N. The only groove I place A over is S, because of misconceptions 3 and 4. Many people think Gief has no good CCs, but their definition of a “good” CC is too strict. He actually has a VERY good CC, the only problem is that it’s near the corner. The problem is getting the opponent to the corner. This is a lot easier than most people would think. Gief’s roll is very instrumental. RC Lariats knock the opponent down, and allow Gief to roll in. especially against grooves without safe fall. RC Running Grab is also good, but riskier. You can also walk back from the start, stalling and building meter. Lure the opponent in and switch sides. This can be done with a double suplex, a crossup roll, or jumping/rolling over after a knockdown. Now that the opponent is in the corner, Gief can use his CC in one of 3 major ways - drop through CC, anti-air, or combo’d after a d/b roundhouse or a walk-up Lariat that hits late. The last option is the most useful. It is the ONLY way to combo into Gief’s supers, in ANY groove.
The last misconception about Gief’s groove choice is actually a result of being ignorant of S’s flaws. S-Gief can be somewhat effective, but the Dodge -> SPD factor isn’t the main reason. People with experience against S know that the best counter to a dodge is to throw. The SPD can be done outside of most characters’ throw ranges, but if you’re ready for it, you can avoid the grab pretty easily by getting yourself airborne (jumping, dashing/hopping back, etc.). Dodge -> grab is very gimmicky. It works at first, but once people catch on, it’s no longer effective. Low jump is by far the best thing about S-groove, but you get those in K and P, plus far better options.
However, what people must remember is that CvS2 is for all intents and purposes a team game. Although K is the best groove for Gief, it’s not like you can use multiple grooves on the same team. The reason I use Gief in A is not because of the things that Gief can or cannot do in A. It’s because I have Blanka and Bison to make up for any mistakes Gief makes. I’ve been a Gief player since classic, and he’s by far the character I use the best. Using him combined with the best groove and the 2 characters that are best in that groove gives me pretty good results.
This is a good thread. I’m currently using N-Gief and am having fun abusing the roll --> SPD when i play casuals. Although i dunno how i’ll stand against high level players…