Everybody needs to talk about Zangief now

Just as an extra note too kcxj’s post, I believe Chun-li can just in general be reversal SPD’d out of SBK, SBK is -2 on block, so a true reversal of 1 frame should be able to grab it everytime, unless htere is something weird about the dropped frame rule that makes this impossible.

Gunter what is the midscreen custom you use?

Playing against rolento do you go for the otg Super finisher?

Oh and as an extra anti-air note RC running grab is also bomb anti-air against moves that are sort of far out… At least in my experience they work very well. But my gief isn’t that great.

Oh, also in Low jump grooves, low jump lk and mk work really well as pokes from afar when used randomly.

What’s the best whiff low jump into 360 or super move?

http://namonaki.com/games/zangief.html <-- Those are the CCs I use. 98% of the time it is the first one in the “specific” section, sometimes off of a walk-in Lariat that hits on the last hit. I don’t normally go for midscreens unless I’m messing around. I start off with Gief, so it isn’t completely necessary for me to use the meter. I tend to go for roll in activates against Rolentos, however… although that’s mainly so I can show off.

I also use RC Running Grab for anti-air sometimes, but I just prefer the ease of RC Lariats. I will say that my overall game improved drastically when I started to include RC Running Grab in my game… I still have to practice it more, but it’s made Chang and Hibiki fights a lot easier.

I wouldn’t be able to tell you what to do in a low jump groove, sorry. His low jump fierce is very good, but I normally see it connect/be blocked. There are a few good K-Gief players around, but I haven’t seen them lately.

If he had his headbutt from A3, he’d be hella dope.

i dont know about all that shit that was just said but i do know the following are awesome:

  1. Punching kids in the head with s./c. hp

  2. low jump hp, 360+hk

He has the headbutt, it does hella dizzy, one of Maj’s old vids has the full dizzy combo in it I think.

Gunter:

Ah okay thats cool. I figured you’d be starting gief first I think thats always the best place for him.

Anybody else like gief anywhere but first? As far as batteries go he can be okay, though with meter he gets scarier but I don’t think it’s necessary. This is probably why people play him in K alot, not really for the damage but because on a team you don’t have to worry about meter management, so you get super scary first character gief, plus still got meter with your “user” and “anchor” characters.

Short note to Kabuki:
He probably means Zangief’s a3 ground move, the hopping headbutt. Kara activate with it, and Zangief goes flying across the screen and its grabby time.

For the dummy stuff: P2 dummy C-groove Sagat all way into the right corner, player K-Zangief on the left. Used the C-groove as a distance measure.

In terms of move reach, st. fierce has the most reach, then cr. fierce, then cr. RH. Both fierces actually cover the same amount of distance, but Gief takes a little step forward for the st. fierce. That of course can work for and against you. Note however, cr. fierce can appear to have equal or better reach sometimes, mainly because against crouchers, st. fierce has to hit their head or will whiff, while cr. fierce loves the fact that crouchers get fatter.

For fun training mode stuff.
Zangief’s st. fierce vs Sagat’s st. fierce. When both moves are clearly out of range, and they can only hit each other’s arms, Sagat’s arm will usually hit Gief’s arm clean. The only time it will trade is if Gief’s fierce is already out and hitting, and Sagat’s arm extends into that. Then it trades. Sagat’s fierce is like that, since his arm starts hitting as soon as it extends, Sagat can punch into an already extended fierce and get a trade. On the flip side, Gief’s arm kinda sticks out before it starts hitting, so punching into a fierce gets Gief owned a lot. So pretty much the only way for Gief to win is to hit back a whiffed fierce, or have his move out well in advance and trade. In terms of reach, including the little forward movement that Gief makes doing the fierce, Sagat st. Fierce and Gief st. fierce have mostly the same reach, i.e. if one whiffs, so will the other. There is a very small area, where Gief’s fierce WILL reach, and Sagat’s will not. However, it’s too small to be of any practical use. Note, this does not take into account stuff like Sagat attempting to do a second fierce, and you hit his forward leg with your Gief fierce already out. For those people who want to try for themselves, set the training dummy as Sagat, walk it back into the corner, then record it to do fierce, then stand still. As long as Gief is standing behind the C in C-groove (on the dummy’s bar), the Sagat fierce will whiff.

Fun note about Sagat’s st. Fierce. If Zangief is crouching/crouch blocking, Sagat’s st. fierce loses a little bit of reach. You’ll find there’s at the right range, if you stand/stand block, you’ll get hit by the fierce, but it whiffs on crouching Gief. Could be useful for some whiff punish trick like, crouch, stand up fierce (because at this range, Zangief’s fist can actually reach Sagat’s body).

Gief’s cr. fierce shows similar properties in terms of trading. Gief’s cr. Fierce seems to have less reach than Sagat’s st. Fierce, due to the aforementioned missing step. If Sagat’s st. fierce whiffs, you can’t hit his body with cr. Fierce if he remains standing, unless it’s you’re crouching at the range where Sagat’s st. Fierce just barely whiffs. If he crouches, he’s easy to hit though, see below.

Gief’s cr. Roundhouse has clearly shorter reach than Sagat’s fierce, but has the very nice property that Zangief is low enough that he’ll go right under the fierce. The same applies to cr. MK. So if you and your opponent hit your buttons at the same time, Gief will sneak right under and trip Sagat. Since Sagat’s leg is stepped forward, as long as he pressed fierce, it will not whiff. On the other hand, in a JD situation, if Sagat hits with the tip of his arm, and Zangief JD’s, the cr. RH can whiff because it’s out of range (no knee to hit). Besides that, after retesting in training mode, I recorded a dummy that could not be hit back by cr. RH. I spent at least 10 min trying, and failed to score any connected RH’s. Then within the next 30-40 seconds, I got a couple of cr. MK’s to connect. So this would suggest that Sagat’s st. Fierce is indeed -9, which is why cr. MK can sometimes work with strict timing, but cr. RH never worked. Note, for people who want to test this yourself. Don’t hit fierce, then hold down back immediately for the dummy. For some reason this allows the dummy to get hit. No idea why. Try to time your block like a JD, and you should get the same result I did.

Against Sagat’s cr. fierce, Zangief’s st. fierce is incapable of hitting the extended limb, it goes right over top. So it only connects if Gief’s fist reaches Sagat’s head. However, at that range, Sagat’s cr. HP will hit Zangief’s knee as he steps forward to do the fierce. So, you won’t win if both moves come out at the same time. It can whiff punish, but I’d rather use crouching fierce, see below.

Sagat and Gief cr. Fierces can hit each other’s extended limbs, but again, because of how Sagat extends his limb, he tends to either beat or trade with Gief. However, Sagat seems to get pretty fat when he crouches. You’ll find that Gief’s cr. Fierce actually has quite a bit more range than Gief st. Fierce against crouching Sagat. However, the same applies to Sagat’s crouching fierce, Gief is fat when ducking too. If you’re ducking with Gief, Sagat’s cr. fierce has roughly equivalent range to the st. fierce. It’ll connect if you stand past the C in C-groove. However, if you’re standing with gief, you can go as far as the G, just behind the R. At any rate, Gief’s cr. fierce has a slight edge on Sagat’s cr. fierce. However, you can boost this edge by simply standing at range so Sagat’s cr. Fierce whiffs, then you do your own cr. Fierce. Fun stuff.

As for cr. RH, if you could sweep him, he can hit you with cr. Fierce. Equal range, his move is slightly faster, but you get a knockdown. You don’t get a range bonus on cr. RH like you do for cr. HP sadly, so yeah.

Ohhhh haha. Yeah I totally forgot about that…

man it’s too bad there aren’t any cool useful kattobi’s like that in CVS 2.

Anyway back to the gief!

I believe Sir Phobos created K Zangief in the united states. But Misterbean has a good k-zangief as well.

OMG…

SoCal represent…

I love how Gene’s sig links Albert’s house with Communism.

K-Gief stuff today! (after work/sleep) :sweat:

Since I’m guessing people won’t read through my above post: I’ll just summarize the key points:

  1. After JDing Sagat st. fierce, cr. RH will not catch them if they block. cr. MK just barely makes it, but it’s not even close to being reliable (1 frame window), and the payoff is low. If they have JD, cr. MK will fail as well.
  2. If thrown out at the same time or if both hitboxes go active at the same time, Zangief’s fierces tend to lose (most of the time), or trade at best. Hitting Sagat’s limbs will either lose or trade, so you do need to aim for his body for better results.
  3. Zangief cr. MK/RH goes under Sagat st. Fierce. You can even be slightly late on pressing the kick buttons and it’ll still go.
  4. Sagat can st. fierce a standing Zangief at a slightly farther range than a crouching Zangief.
  5. Zangief can cr. HP Sagat at a significantly further distance if Sagat crouches, and Sagat’s cr. HP likewise gains a significant amount of reach is Gief crouches. If both characters are crouching, Zangief has a slight range advantage to his fierce. Also, due to this property, it is much easier to hit back a whiffed Sagat cr. HP with a Gief cr. HP, than a Gief st. HP. Gief st. HP has to make it all the way to Sagat’s head, while cr. HP can tag his widened body. So cr. HP actually fees like it has MORE range than st. HP in this situation. On the other hand, if you’re actually in range that ducking would get you hit by Sagat’s cr. HP, you may simply want to stay standing while the move whiffs, then hit you’re fierce after.
  6. Cute tricks and wishful thinking: (which won’t happen very often): You could try to bait a Sagat st. fierce that would normally hit, but you’re crouching so it whiffs. Then stand up and fierce it back. Against cr. HP, if you’re at the magic range where it won’t hit standing opponents, simply block high. He’s got nothing that’ll reach you anyways. If he gets suckered and presses cr. HP, whiff punish as you please. If it’s that close, st. HP will make it easily, but do not press the button early, or Gief’s knee will get hit when he steps forward.

Hi,

Another K-Gief user here.

What I’ve been doing is that if Sagat throws out S.HP a lot, I do Giefs. S.HK back. I either hit or trade, My favour! If I throw out at the right time, I will drop my body and kick his punch. If I miss, I’ve dropped on the floor and he doesn’t hit me. If I do it a slightly too close, we trade. Meh, i don’t mind the trade.

Please experiment and find out for yourself. It works.

Edit : I neglected to add that theres another tricky thing to do with K-Gief.
If Sagat is spamming his S.HP at you, short jump straight up and do your head butt. Once you’re used to it (The Distance), you’ll most likely hit or trade (Again) for a 40+ amount of Dizzy. If he’s stupid enough to let you do it twice in a row, he’s dizzied.

You know it baby!

Since most people won’t see the edit.
So I eat have to eat crow for screwing up my training mode, and making bad assumptions hehe. Dashes CAN be grabbed by ARS, my timing was just bad.
Basically what happened was off the st. short -> FAB, I was timing the FAB late, and backdashed late all the time. Backdashing late avoids the ARS because backdashes aren’t off the ground instantly, and by the time the FAB went off, they were off the ground. Guilty Gear, this is not.

In other news, I decided to definitively test to see whether mashing on buttons removes the throw invincibility you normally get when coming out of block or hitstun. And I can say 100% that it does. Everyone always knew that you could grab reversal RC’s early, so I just wanted to test to see if hitting ANY button would remove the invincibility. It does. So now everyone who says, “But I was mashing on jab to escape a throw attempt”, has a valid excuse. This also means grabbing RC scouter and stuff is not the tight window I thought it was. Again, this falls under the suspected, but no one really sat down and tested it I think. Now it is.

Test cases:
Dummy Zangief: cr. jab (+5), link SPD. When played, the dummy does a cr. jab, then does the pile driver whiff animation. 2nd test was cr. jab, hold forward fierce. Gief does a cr. jab, walk a tad st. fierce.
Blanka: Tried “reversal” st. fierce, then other buttons. Rolling (not ball), Reversal KKK dashes, Blanka ball.

Summary:
All of the above get grabbed.

Other things that probably should be included on the wiki:
command grabs off blockstrings:
From point blank:
Off any combination of 3 jabs/shorts. All leave you out of range of jab piledriver, so none of your normal grabs work. :frowning:
Combination of 2 jabs/shorts. If started from pointblank, you’re still in range for jab/strong piledriver (only fierce whiffs), and the upclose version of 360+K. If not started from point blank, jab piledriver is the safe option, 360+K can work, but use your discretion.
Green hand cannot combo off jabs/shorts (Awww.)

st. short -> SPD as a tick. It is possible to do the SPD too early, so that the grab will whiff, if they didn’t do anything. So you want to be a little slack on the timing, if you do it as soon as possible, you whiff. Hmm.

360+K confirmed to have 1 frame startup.
Tried reversalling it against Sagat cr. RH (knockdown), lay down meaty cr. HP. Got the SPD and FAB to go, but 360+K got hit, but displayed the reversal message.

That being said, you would think that
st. short, link 360+K should never whiff. Supposedly the -5 from the short, and the extra 1 frame startup for the 360+K should mean it never whiffs (startup of 6, versus 6 frame can’t grab window)? Sadly, untrue. It’s possible to get the whiffed 360+K (Running bear grab, not the suplex.) linking it after st. short. Probably because the game checks on frame 1 to see if the opponent is throwable, and then chooses to do either the suplex, or the RBG on frame 2.

that’s a neat lil tidbit. I knew about the rolls/rc’s being early grabbable but didn’t know it applied ot everything else as well.

Yes, I noticed this as well, but it makes sense when you think about it. It’s funny in a nerdy kinda way how technically there is no whiffed animation for the Suplex cmd grab.

About this though

Yes, but just barely if I’m getting this right. Since attempting a throw too early on a rising opponent results in a close hp/hk then getting the actual throw to come out would mean that the other player is doing something which puts them into a throwable state, correct? If that’s the case then considering the usual 3 frame startup for c.lp and equal startup for a punch throw, then getting grabbed early out of a jab (since grabs beat hits) could only happen if the jab and the throw started on the exact same frame. Pretty freak accident if/when it does happen.

From a programmer’s point of view I think it’s funny how they could even manage to pull that off. They’re probably interleaveing the character actions/decisions for both characters or something. Because, for the throw to come out instead of the close s.hp the other player’s throwable state would have to have changed already, which means that the input for the other player was already read and processed to a certain degree, but then the throw input of the attacking player is being processed now… wouldn’t that mean that p2 could early throw p1’s 3 frame jab, but that p1 could not throw p2’s 3 frame jab? I’m jsut thinking out loud now, I’m sure there’s tons of ways to solve such a problem and I’m sidetracking too much.

Ok, so now we gotta start adding this stuff to the wiki. Any volunteers?

i volunteer maj

2nded

So, how’s this gonna work? You guys can basically just put up whatever you see fit, then post a link in this thread when you’re done. I guess then everyone can take a look and review your choices, then we’ll discuss some more to iron out the details. If you guys need anything more (like if the frame data is incomplete or you want some extra info about combo damage), let us know.

Hm, so, i’ve noticed that we’re not exactly making much progress here. If you guys lost interest, then let us know so that we can elect another champ to represent the people.

Cuz, honestly, as brilliant as this is …

… i feel that the omission of the best terrible anti-air move in CvS2 (Gief’s vertical j.U+HP) needs to be rectified. If we falter in this duty, we shall have no right to call ourselves CvS2 players.