Since we’re playing the change game.
Reduce start up on st. Hp st. Hk and cr. Hp.
Reduce her jump frames.
Bring back arcade slide and cr. Hp cancel.
@Sprint [details=Spoiler]Maybe I use it differently, but I use her overhead to get in (mostly at the edge of Ryu’s cr.MK range)setting up tick throws and frametraps, and not really with the intent of hitting (nice bonus when it does though). I also don’t understand the point of mention if a move whiffs you can punish it. I mean I can somewhat understand in conjunction with the standing animation moving her back, but at the same time if any move whiffs you could whiff punish it he just has to space it better… But it getting beat out by st.hk or even B+HK is just a part of footsies. That doesn’t diminish the effectiveness of the overhead because 4 normals beat it out. Because of it’s utility and range.
And I know it doesn’t work well. I was basically saying he was still experimenting in that entire set and if he saw something consistently didn’t work then he was better off trying other options that work against her. I was also talking about some of the poorly spaced spin scythes I saw in the set. I mean he almost religiously tried to punish with cr.mk for the first few sets and failed quite a bit, each one of those could’ve lead to an EX dp or ultra. I feel like if he knew the matchup well enough to know he can’t punish it well he would’ve done better.
And I definitely saw him use cr.mk a lot until he tried cr.HK which worked a lot better also leading to more and then he shifted to using that almost exclusively.
But I’m not even making much of a matchup analysis or saying a matchup score other than saying he could’ve quite a bit more things and he seemed to not know the matchup very well and I don’t think that’s a good metric to understand how she places or her Ibuki matchup score. It’s only a metric of how she craps on people who don’t know what to do. It’s very much like Dan kicks being used vs a player that doesn’t know the Dan matchup and then saying Dan is great.
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My wishlist outside of hitbox/hurtbox stuff:
[details=Spoiler]-Fix her fucking move priority. Pleaaaaaase
-Make her st.hp>st.HK +1 on hit at least. I at least deserve some momentum if this ever lands. I wanted to say +3 but the damage would be too crazy.
-Make her st.HP hit all standing opponents regardless of state (dizzy etc) or height. Idc if it has a huge hitbox below it and it’s just flagged not to hit crouchers, but something should be done.
- EX Rhino should hit crouchers. Whether it be vs low focus attacks or low fireballs it’s insane that this move will at most get like 100 damage in it’s most effective fireball countering range can’t take on either of those.
_ cr.lk should link into itself. Even if it’s just +4 it should link into itself.
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change st.mp into 40,60 at least. I feel like cr.hp is the predictive big reward AA, st.mp is the reactive AA, and EX scratch wheel is the last resort option. But 40 damage isn’t going to discourage anyone from jumping. Also make it better on hit/block. +1,-5 wouldn’t be overpowered and gives her something to work with. You can get a CH link into st.lk at a range where only the second hit will connect and even though most special move followups will whiff it can push an opponent to a range where they don’t want to be. Also that’s around 105 damage with the damage buff included or a super link off of the st.lk for around 385. You still have to be careful but there’s some reward for it. Not too much; not terrible.
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Increase cr.HP damage to 120. For a move that’s slow, negative on block, trades a bit, can’t be special cancelled and very few active frames I feel like this should be the big fish option. If you react quick enough you get a good amount of damage to force an opponent to stay on the ground and play to your game.
Luxury changes:
- F+MP should have slightly better recovery FFS F+MK is 12 frames and has nearly identical recovery. With a 20 frame startup I’d have it at around 16 frames recovery. Outside of that it should have the same hit/block data
-Alter damage distribution for Scratch wheels. I’d make it
lk=100 (upper body invincible until frame 7)- This should never trade the payoff would be too ridiculous if it did with her moveset. But it gives her another solid option vs most jumpins (loses to claw jHP if it’s deep enough or low dive kicks).
mk=70,70 (same damage as now just - better for psychic dps, but mostly helps in combos where one hit may hit and not another - no change to invincibility)
HK=40,40,40 ( same damage= distributed equally- throw invincibility frame 1-5)
EX=Revert back to 3 hits 70,50,50 / stun =80,30,70 (20 more damage for hitting it deep or early; same stun as now just distributed differently- Full invincibility frame 1-5)
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I don’t even care about the links we have now. I just want to be rewarded if I guess or make a correct read.
@onemic [details=Spoiler]It’s pretty diffucult to parry at first with her because of her neutral stance in 3s especially fireballs.
Also it’s crazy to think that this is how EX RH worked in xt. It always did set damage (200 iirc)and Oki but you got no juggles off of it which was a great trade off. If I could get a 110 damage version of this I would trade it immediately.[/details]
Edit: Compressed post a lot
Bought the guide. Her hitbox/hurtboxes are a lot worse that I imagined. Not terrible but notably worse than the hitboxes of the vanilla and super cast. I can probably post screens later though.
Dunno why I preordered it online, probably won’t get it for another month or something. Should have just bought it in store. Wanna see those hitboxes badly, especially for her anti air normals.
Patch is coming out tomorrow and Elena isn’t even being touched…guess another patch for hurtboxes and maybe hitboxes will come later?
Is Elena really that bad? I just started playing her a few days ago and I’ve been having fun. She is a struggle to play with online but offline she’s pretty fun. I never got the impression she was complete shit bottom tier. I am a honda main so I do know what a real struggle is.
Yes. The longer you play her the more apparent it is
Funny thing I noticed, after getting bodied for the 700th straight time trying to make Elena work, I decided to look at her 3rd Strike frame data to get a good idea how I was able to abuse folks there compared to SF4. A lot of her frame data reflects almost exactly like 3rd Strike. Which leaves me to believe that she’s not a shitty character in a popular game but a great character in a shitty game. She’s built for a 3rd Strike playstyle but was force with SF4 treatment. It’s like trying to fit a wooden triangle block into a square hole. Maybe she’s not fit to face the majority of characters who come from different iterations of SF that had different mechanics and pacing. 3rd Strike is fast paced and aggressive, whereas SF4 is defensive and slow as sin. Her SFxTK iteration just seemed right because her main tools were completely different.
I gave up trying to learn this chick, but knowing this has made me more comfortable playing with her. I came up with a quick high/low playstyle that I think suits a good way of thinking. I’ll upload some matches tonight to show what I mean.
She’d be ten times better if she could do resets like in 3rd Strike tho.
@MyKiLL It’s the frame data on key tools that makes her not as good as she could be.But what really gets me is the inconsistency, in fact if she just had 1 meterless DP that was 1 hit and did good damage she’d be demonstrably better. Because that would force your opponents to play her ground game. If B+HK gave CH in addition to that I’d never complain about her. The fact that your could play a solid ground game an entire round and if you AA 9 times out of ten but get hit once all of that effort goes to waste that makes me filled with disgust. I’m not even scared of jumping in on her 20 times per round just because it’s not that frightening not mentally nor physically. You don’t even need to second guess jumping in on her and the whack part is it’s like that for 4 out of 5 new characters. Relative to other challengers this bunch has the weakest AA game of all; 2 out of 5 have meterless dps out of that 2 only 1 hits consistently for max damage.
I’d argue if it wasn’t for 3 key tools in xT she’d be ass as well. St.lp putting them into juggle, lk scratch wheel being a good/ consistent AA, and buttons that were positive she’d be ass even with LK lynx at -2.
Side note I’ve confirmed that her lynx tail hitboxes have different sizes the go further back at dumb moments. And MK scratch (and possibly LK scratch) has the best AA hitbox even better than the EX. It’s just not invincible =|
Honestly, what really kills me is that her rhythm doesn’t suit Ultra.(puns not intended) In 3rd Strike you could pressure really well with Mallet mash strung with st.lk a couple times then mixing up with st.lk xx Lynx. Granted if your target has a hard time parrying high and low, you then abuse their wake-up with a meaty f.mk then bait a counterhit with b.hk, only to start the same shenanigans again with a Heavy Mallet Mash from long distance which either one of few things can/will happen:
They try to escape by jumping? They’ll get clipped giving you a free EX Rhino xx DP combo or you reset with f.mk and go for some more shenanigans like univ-OH as they land.
They eat the Heavy Mallet? Free Super.
They block high? Either bait a reversal, go for st.lk high/low strings again or tick throw.
Hell, she’s got amazing oki even when her targets quick rise in that game. In Ultra, all a mothafucka has to do is mash a few lp’s and mp’s and they’re good. You can’t jump into dat ass as quickly as you traditionally could. Fuck her wonky hurtbox, she could’ve been a major beast in this game.
A lot of the complaints about her are off base. She isn’t an easy character to play. If you like her then run with her. I’d ignore most of what’s said here its negative and discouraging.
Or realistic because it’s not just this forum it’s literally almost every player but you lol.
People in the fgc parrot an opinion. So instead of actually putting in work you get a bunch of cosigners. For instance Elena is considered bottom 5 by most but based on what exactly? I’ve seen two long sets of Elena and she absolutely dominated 2 characters that’s considered top 5.
Now let’s ask ourselves has any character ever been considering bad that eventually people change their opinion on? The answer is yes. There’s always characters that’s “slept on”. But let’s be real as long as Elena isn’t a certain way you’re not going to like her.
Anyways I’ll stop here. In the end my opinion doesnt matter everyone can do what they wan5.
This is literally the worst excuse that people in the FGC use to invalidate other peoples opinions. “if you don’t think this person is good, you haven’t put in enough work” I guess you could say the same for any other character that’s considered bottom. ‘Sim and Deejay are completely fine, people that use him(except me, of course) don’t put in enough work and just like to whine.’ It’s the ultimate condescending and lazy argument that requires no thought and also hedges your bets as there’s no way(in your mind) that you could be wrong about your opinion. If they say this character sucks, then it’s really the player that sucks and doesnt put in the work, if they say they don’t suck, they just confirmed what you’ve been saying all along. Win-win!
Now as for your third sentence, I really think you should be flipping that question on its head. Me, kit, Blackadde, and countless other have written paragraphs upon paragraphs detailing why the character is bad. We have explained countless times her negatives that completely outweigh any positives she has to bring to MU’s. This has not been true on the other side of the spectrum and the only argument I still hear to this day is “she’s good” “she’s good and if people say shes bad they dont want to put in work” “Sako and Jwong used her as a pocket twice in EVO and did well, she’s solid” No going indepth as to why they think she’s good and reaching for straws on a player doing well and picking Elena as a pocket character(and often times lost…). Yes Valmaster and the dude(sako?) that played the Ibuki did very well in their sets, but for the latter it was clear the Ibuki didn’t know jack about the MU(and if it was indeed sako, i dont even need to say anymore lol) and the former is a lopsided MU in Elena’s favor till the hurtbox fix comes in. I mean, I can do the same for just about any bad character, find 2 sets where they do well and base an entire argument just on that. It’s not like winning sets of bad characters don’t exist. This reminds me of people that used the CCG team exhibition where Deejay OCV’d team Canada and people were using that one set as the reason why Deejay was actually good and everyone who said he’s bad is just a bad player. It was pretty easy to know that it was a load of bs if you actually pay attention to the game and see the tools Deejay has vs the cast and that basing an opinion based on 1 good set for a character that more often than not does no have winning sets is not quite the smartest way to frame an opinion, same goes here.
I like Elena. It’s the reason she’s my main, and it’s the reason why I spend everyday trying to improve my game with her, but I’m not gonna be blind to things that are right in front of me. She’s a bad character and trying to act like she’s really good and people that say she’s bad don’t know what they’re talking about(and dont know how to properly play her) even when they go out of their way to explain themselves, while you yourself, provide nothing to the conversation past that ad-hominem really rubs me the wrong way.
Im not sure why she didnt get any changes in the title update. She has glaring issues.
Like Kilt said, if she had a solid DP (I love how it worked in cross tekken) and B HK worked she would be alot better. B Hk in particular would be so nice if you couldn’t get crouching jabbed out of it consistently and you got the actually CH properties.
Even if they left that alone and left st lk how it was I’d be happy, I do wish her Crouch MK worked like it did in where you could link it into itself it was such a solid poke. I feel like if the buffed the frame data on that just a bit I could work with her much more.
Really its so much about her that could help her out ton that wouldn’t take much to change, and in that re guard I kinda see why they gutted her, they were definitely afraid she would dominate.
As it stands everything about her is bad mostly and no matter what you can’t turn that into a good character, even if she play’s well.
I said this from jump but I feel like elena’s hit box are working as intended.
Ya know I can say the same thing about the Elena is bad crowd.
Elena only did well because it’s a top player playing her.
Elena only did well cause the other guy lacked MU knowledge.
Elena only did well because of her hurtbox.
Yeah the Elena is bad side has shitty canned responses also. There’s really no legitimate discussion going on here.
If we look at the Ibuki vs Elena set. There was a lot of lt tails that went unpunished that could of been punished. That aside did it look like Ibuki could deal with Elena? The MU looked really bad for Ibuki. You can say whatever but matchups don’t revolve around punishing a special. It helps to be able to punish something but it’s just one aspect of a MU.
I believe the hurtbox thing is also an excuse. I don’t believe that to be as huge in MU’s as certain people claim. It’s pretty knee jerk and the opponent just needs to adjust their combo.
I agree.
Regarding all the other discussion, I think it’s pretty clear that Elena is not good. The question you guys should probably be considering is if she’s a bad character that has decent matchups or a bad character with bad matchups. Some people get caught up thinking that if you beat a really good character in a matchup that your character must be good when that’s not necessarily the case.
Either way, Elena is fun when things aren’t whiffing, and people who think she’s bad without actually knowing why still get annoyed by playing good Elenas. The character can still get plenty of burn, so as long as the conversation ends up producing more solid playstyles and interesting tricks, then it’s all good.
For certain videos where you pin all your whole argument as to why Elena is a good character, yes. In general though? No, and I think you know this being on this forum from the beginning. You’ve seen us go into explicit detail as to why she isn’t good and it’s really not the same when you’re bringing up responses to specific videos, rather than how people detail why she’s bad as a whole. one side doing canned responses in certain instances vs the opposite side doing canned responses in every instance isn’t the same thing.
I don’t see how the Ibuki MU can be any worse than a 5 - 5, Ibuki has so many tools to get in and at the heart of it all she’s a vortex character, one mistake as Elena can essentially cost you the entire round. This is why that dude not punishing those LT’s were big. One mistake is all Elena needs to do to get into the vortex where you’re at a huge disadvantage, especially because she doesn’t have any reversal that’s fully invincible. By not punishing them, he let the Elena player take bigger risks and get away with it. And there are a lot of MU’s that sway into one chracters favour because certain things are unpunishable and abusable and vice versa. Example: Adon’s jaguar kicks being safe from most of the cast except vs grapplers. It’s simple punish situation that completely changes what a MU could be. Because it’s punishable by a grapplers SPD an Adon player can’t haphazardly throw them out as anything not space perfectly will eat an SPD. This is the main thing that makes the MU be in Giefs/Hawk’s favour. A grappler that isn’t weary of this and does nothing to punish a badly spaced JK is throwing the huge advantage they have away. For Ibuki a punish means they get knocked down and Elena has to deal with Ibuki’s mixups a huge advatage for ibuki considering her mixups and a huge disadvantage for Elena who can’t deal with up close pressure well.
And what exactly about her hurtbox is an excuse? people only use it as an argument for the viper MU…I never really see it brought up in a MU other than that as it totally changes how Viper can play.