Elena General Discussion

[TheDarkPhoenix]

Off the top and far from everything, lots of attacks that hit crouching characters whiff on crouching elena, yun can combo off his overhead for free, giving him a high, low, and dive kick pressure game (gg that match up) certain cross up completely whiff on her crouching (altho why would you risk it) everyone knows that rog’s super block string isn’t a true block string vs her etc etc.

Also alot of combo’s on her will whiff too (which I think should be fixed, but probably can’t be without a over haul of the character)

after some time it won’t be a big deal because everyone will know what whiffs what against her but for now its all up in the air.

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Or realistic because it’s not just this forum it’s literally almost every player but you lol.

People in the fgc parrot an opinion. So instead of actually putting in work you get a bunch of cosigners. For instance Elena is considered bottom 5 by most but based on what exactly? I’ve seen two long sets of Elena and she absolutely dominated 2 characters that’s considered top 5.

Now let’s ask ourselves has any character ever been considering bad that eventually people change their opinion on? The answer is yes. There’s always characters that’s “slept on”. But let’s be real as long as Elena isn’t a certain way you’re not going to like her.

Anyways I’ll stop here. In the end my opinion doesnt matter everyone can do what they wan5.

This is literally the worst excuse that people in the FGC use to invalidate other peoples opinions. “if you don’t think this person is good, you haven’t put in enough work” I guess you could say the same for any other character that’s considered bottom. ‘Sim and Deejay are completely fine, people that use him(except me, of course) don’t put in enough work and just like to whine.’ It’s the ultimate condescending and lazy argument that requires no thought and also hedges your bets as there’s no way(in your mind) that you could be wrong about your opinion. If they say this character sucks, then it’s really the player that sucks and doesnt put in the work, if they say they don’t suck, they just confirmed what you’ve been saying all along. Win-win!

Now as for your third sentence, I really think you should be flipping that question on its head. Me, kit, Blackadde, and countless other have written paragraphs upon paragraphs detailing why the character is bad. We have explained countless times her negatives that completely outweigh any positives she has to bring to MU’s. This has not been true on the other side of the spectrum and the only argument I still hear to this day is “she’s good” “she’s good and if people say shes bad they dont want to put in work” “Sako and Jwong used her as a pocket twice in EVO and did well, she’s solid” No going indepth as to why they think she’s good and reaching for straws on a player doing well and picking Elena as a pocket character(and often times lost…). Yes Valmaster and the dude(sako?) that played the Ibuki did very well in their sets, but for the latter it was clear the Ibuki didn’t know jack about the MU(and if it was indeed sako, i dont even need to say anymore lol) and the former is a lopsided MU in Elena’s favor till the hurtbox fix comes in. I mean, I can do the same for just about any bad character, find 2 sets where they do well and base an entire argument just on that. It’s not like winning sets of bad characters don’t exist. This reminds me of people that used the CCG team exhibition where Deejay OCV’d team Canada and people were using that one set as the reason why Deejay was actually good and everyone who said he’s bad is just a bad player. It was pretty easy to know that it was a load of bs if you actually pay attention to the game and see the tools Deejay has vs the cast and that basing an opinion based on 1 good set for a character that more often than not does no have winning sets is not quite the smartest way to frame an opinion, same goes here.

I like Elena. It’s the reason she’s my main, and it’s the reason why I spend everyday trying to improve my game with her, but I’m not gonna be blind to things that are right in front of me. She’s a bad character and trying to act like she’s really good and people that say she’s bad don’t know what they’re talking about(and dont know how to properly play her) even when they go out of their way to explain themselves, while you yourself, provide nothing to the conversation past that ad-hominem really rubs me the wrong way.

Ya know I can say the same thing about the Elena is bad crowd.

Elena only did well because it’s a top player playing her.
Elena only did well cause the other guy lacked MU knowledge.
Elena only did well because of her hurtbox.

Yeah the Elena is bad side has shitty canned responses also. There’s really no legitimate discussion going on here.

If we look at the Ibuki vs Elena set. There was a lot of lt tails that went unpunished that could of been punished. That aside did it look like Ibuki could deal with Elena? The MU looked really bad for Ibuki. You can say whatever but matchups don’t revolve around punishing a special. It helps to be able to punish something but it’s just one aspect of a MU.

I believe the hurtbox thing is also an excuse. I don’t believe that to be as huge in MU’s as certain people claim. It’s pretty knee jerk and the opponent just needs to adjust their combo.

For certain videos where you pin all your whole argument as to why Elena is a good character, yes. In general though? No, and I think you know this being on this forum from the beginning. You’ve seen us go into explicit detail as to why she isn’t good and it’s really not the same when you’re bringing up responses to specific videos, rather than how people detail why she’s bad as a whole. one side doing canned responses in certain instances vs the opposite side doing canned responses in every instance isn’t the same thing.

I don’t see how the Ibuki MU can be any worse than a 5 - 5, Ibuki has so many tools to get in and at the heart of it all she’s a vortex character, one mistake as Elena can essentially cost you the entire round. This is why that dude not punishing those LT’s were big. One mistake is all Elena needs to do to get into the vortex where you’re at a huge disadvantage, especially because she doesn’t have any reversal that’s fully invincible. By not punishing them, he let the Elena player take bigger risks and get away with it. And there are a lot of MU’s that sway into one chracters favour because certain things are unpunishable and abusable and vice versa. Example: Adon’s jaguar kicks being safe from most of the cast except vs grapplers. It’s simple punish situation that completely changes what a MU could be. Because it’s punishable by a grapplers SPD an Adon player can’t haphazardly throw them out as anything not space perfectly will eat an SPD. This is the main thing that makes the MU be in Giefs/Hawk’s favour. A grappler that isn’t weary of this and does nothing to punish a badly spaced JK is throwing the huge advantage they have away. For Ibuki a punish means they get knocked down and Elena has to deal with Ibuki’s mixups a huge advatage for ibuki considering her mixups and a huge disadvantage for Elena who can’t deal with up close pressure well.

And what exactly about her hurtbox is an excuse? people only use it as an argument for the viper MU…I never really see it brought up in a MU other than that as it totally changes how Viper can play.

Part of the videos I say validate Elena showcases her spacing SS and not getting punished for it. For those who say Elena is always unsafe. It also show her against MU’S that people claim she loses. Or they’re just showcasing things people say isn’t possible with Elena.

As for the Ibuki it seemed like Ibuki struggle to get in her normals aren’t as good as Elena’s. It seemed like Elena really dominated the ground game. The vortex didn’t really ever happen for whatever reason. But I’m not really sure but what kinda set ups does Ibuki get from sweep?

Umm just look at what people say. The first thing they bring up is her hurtbox or how she crouches under a bunch of shit.

[the7k]

Ranting. Would have deleted it but I got pissed off again and whatever. Just ignore it unless you want to get mad for no reason.

[details=Spoiler]About every time I hear people say Elena is OP, they rarely ever validate it with reasons other that “She just is, shut up!” or “Capcom, plz fix hurtbox.”

Here’s what I do know.

Elena has a terrible anti-air game. You have to know when and where to use st.LP, st.MP, cr.HP, st.HP and nj.HP, and pretty much everytime if you pick the wrong one you’re getting punished. There’s never happy accidents, where you should have done st.MP, did st.LP instead and it still worked. You get punished. And even if you do succeed, you’ve taken 40-80 life off of them. Big deal. That’s nothing. That’s not going to dissuade people from jumping in again. Compare that to many other characters in the game who have a go-to anti-air special that does big damage on it’s own and even more if you go for SRK FADC Ultra.

Elena has a terrible air game. Jumping in the air is such a huge risk for Elena unless you happen to be fighting another Elena player. Easy to swat out the air, and even if you do get something out of it, you’re not getting much out of it.

Elena has a terrible anti-zoning game. Slide is extremely vulnerable now, almost comically so. EX Rhino Horn does a laughable 50 damage, you’d be much better off taking the damn hit and just saving that meter for anything else. And again, her terrible jump makes even that a risk. Her best option is focus - ya know, the same option every other character in the game has.

Elena has a terrible anti-grappler game. All but one of her moves is negative on block. Even Dee Jay has an assortment of moves that leave him positive on block. Did your go-to footsie tool cr.MP just get blocked? Well, better get ready for that SPD, because it’s coming - you can’t fucking avoid it.

Elena has a terrible mix-up game. It really fucking boils my blood every time I see some beginners tutorial say “Elena is a mix-up character.” Having access to a few shitty overheads and lows doesn’t make you a mix-up character. First of all, the idea of a mix-up character is that you don’t know whether a high or low will be coming - but anybody who actually plays Elena will know, because all of her overheads and lows are only effective at very specific ranges. Is she in throw range? Well, any form of Mallet Smash is just going to whiff at that range, and any Handstand move is, at it’s fastest, 12 frames startup and doesn’t crush low making it vulnerable to any light attack and probably every medium attack that too, so that kinda limits her options to low or throw, doesn’t it? Is she in Mallet Smash range? Well, she’s going to do Mallet Smash. It’s literally about half of what is good about her, plus her low options at this range would be inconsistent and tend to drop hits. Is she a bit further out than that? Then she’s probably going to go for a Handstand attack because this is the only range at which that is safe and her Lynx Tail sure as hell can’t reach. Further out still? Well, her only option now is Slide. Oh boy, the levels! All the layers of that strategy - a strategy that revolves around the range you are at and nothing else because the range you are at always presents you with exactly one valid option.

There. That’s my reason for believing Elena is a bottom tier at best character. The only good thing I feel Elena has at this point is EX Mallet Smash and the reward you can reap from it landing. That’s it, that’s literally all I see good in Elena right now. Everything else Elena has that some poor soul might consider to be good hasn’t seen that there are several other characters that have that exact same thing but better. That’s her biggest problem - that so many characters do the exact same thing she does, except with much better frames, much lower execution requirements, much easier spacing requirements (if any), more available styles of play and less weaknesses.[/details]

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ranting. Would have deleted it but I got pissed off again and whatever. Just ignore it unless you want to get mad for no reason.

[details=Spoiler]About every time I hear people say Elena is OP, they rarely ever validate it with reasons other that “She just is, shut up!” or “Capcom, plz fix hurtbox.”

Here’s what I do know.

Elena has a terrible anti-air game. You have to know when and where to use st.LP, st.MP, cr.HP, st.HP and nj.HP, and pretty much everytime if you pick the wrong one you’re getting punished. There’s never happy accidents, where you should have done st.MP, did st.LP instead and it still worked. You get punished. And even if you do succeed, you’ve taken 40-80 life off of them. Big deal. That’s nothing. That’s not going to dissuade people from jumping in again. Compare that to many other characters in the game who have a go-to anti-air special that does big damage on it’s own and even more if you go for SRK FADC Ultra.

Elena has a terrible air game. Jumping in the air is such a huge risk for Elena unless you happen to be fighting another Elena player. Easy to swat out the air, and even if you do get something out of it, you’re not getting much out of it.

Elena has a terrible anti-zoning game. Slide is extremely vulnerable now, almost comically so. EX Rhino Horn does a laughable 50 damage, you’d be much better off taking the damn hit and just saving that meter for anything else. And again, her terrible jump makes even that a risk. Her best option is focus - ya know, the same option every other character in the game has.

Elena has a terrible anti-grappler game. All but one of her moves is negative on block. Even Dee Jay has an assortment of moves that leave him positive on block. Did your go-to footsie tool cr.MP just get blocked? Well, better get ready for that SPD, because it’s coming - you can’t fucking avoid it.

Elena has a terrible mix-up game. It really fucking boils my blood every time I see some beginners tutorial say “Elena is a mix-up character.” Having access to a few shitty overheads and lows doesn’t make you a mix-up character. First of all, the idea of a mix-up character is that you don’t know whether a high or low will be coming - but anybody who actually plays Elena will know, because all of her overheads and lows are only effective at very specific ranges. Is she in throw range? Well, any form of Mallet Smash is just going to whiff at that range, and any Handstand move is, at it’s fastest, 12 frames startup and doesn’t crush low making it vulnerable to any light attack and probably every medium attack that too, so that kinda limits her options to low or throw, doesn’t it? Is she in Mallet Smash range? Well, she’s going to do Mallet Smash. It’s literally about half of what is good about her, plus her low options at this range would be inconsistent and tend to drop hits. Is she a bit further out than that? Then she’s probably going to go for a Handstand attack because this is the only range at which that is safe and her Lynx Tail sure as hell can’t reach. Further out still? Well, her only option now is Slide. Oh boy, the levels! All the layers of that strategy - a strategy that revolves around the range you are at and nothing else because the range you are at always presents you with exactly one valid option.

There. That’s my reason for believing Elena is a bottom tier at best character. The only good thing I feel Elena has at this point is EX Mallet Smash and the reward you can reap from it landing. That’s it, that’s literally all I see good in Elena right now. Everything else Elena has that some poor soul might consider to be good hasn’t seen that there are several other characters that have that exact same thing but better. That’s her biggest problem - that so many characters do the exact same thing she does, except with much better frames, much lower execution requirements, much easier spacing requirements (if any), more available styles of play and less weaknesses.[/details]

Reading this did make me mad there’s reasons too. But who said Elena is OP?

[MyKiLL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRUU7YGHvQo

Watch between 0:35 and 0:42.
Very. Carefully.
I fucking dare anyone to try and convince me that she’s a good character in this POS.

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRUU7YGHvQo

Watch between 0:35 and 0:42.
Very. Carefully.
I fucking dare anyone to try and convince me that she’s a good character in this POS.

I don’t follow

[KitL19]

Mallet didn’t beat out the random cr.lk which is kinda silly. Also wow dude that Elena player did not stop pressing buttons. Geez.

But if she had 1 solid AA that Gen player would not have jumped in on her like 15 times per round.

[MyKiLL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRUU7YGHvQo

Watch between 0:35 and 0:42.
Very. Carefully.
I fucking dare anyone to try and convince me that she’s a good character in this POS.

I don’t follow

EX Mallet got anti-aired by a crouching short.

EX Mallet anti-aired by a crouching short.

anti-aired by a crouching short.

EX Mallet.

anti-aired.

by a crouching. fucking. short.

You’re 20 feet in the air, what is the last fucking thing you expect to clip you?

[Sprint]

It’s a fucking 15 frame overhead into full combo. If it were able to cleanly beat things out then it would be broken.
There are plenty of things to complain about with Elena. That is not one of them.

[wewk584]

Ranting. Would have deleted it but I got pissed off again and whatever. Just ignore it unless you want to get mad for no reason.

spoiler… About every time I hear people say Elena is OP, they rarely ever validate it with reasons other that “She just is, shut up!” or “Capcom, plz fix hurtbox.”

Here’s what I do know.

snip

A decent explanation of elenas weaknesses.

Ultimately Capcom gives characters 1 frame links to make things that could potentially be broken, not as broken. They dont do it to put the character out of reach of casual players.

We all saw sako (the evil ryu combo god) dropping eryus one frame links. The thing is eryu has a game outside of one frame links. (ez and damaging AAs even when he doesnt have ultra… and when he has ultra you better not jump in)… someone putting in time can excel while someone just grinding with eryu can do decent. Ultimately if ryu lands one out of 2 hard combos he is doing well.

Elena really has very little game outside of one framers. As stated her ‘mixup’ is predictable by even half way decent players by the spacing you are at because each move works best at one range… her AAs are very situational, do no damage, and lead to nothing. She (intentionally and understandably) has no chainable moves and her frame data on block sucks… I played a ken that DPd through all of my blocked c.lps. First i was mad. Then I thought… ‘im lucky everyone I play doesnt do it’… So elena really only can exist on baiting and hitting a one frame. And again… even top players drop one frames. And the non-ultra combos arent as damaging as eryus even if u hit them.

Now… elena is fun as hell. and is only bad because most of the other characters are so strong. And youll get wins if your opponent doesnt know the matchup, you can beast against them or just out fundamental them (ie use moves that arent specific to your character). So… maybe through a patch or someone finding something dumb by accident or both she will improve and the people saying she is good now will say ‘see’ even though it will have nothing to do with any argument they have given now. but short of a glitch or a patch… her current iteration is weak vs the current cast.

[KitL19]

It’s a fucking 15 frame overhead into full combo. If it were able to cleanly beat things out then it would be broken.
There are plenty of things to complain about with Elena. That is not one of them.

I liked it better when it was a 22 frame overhead that was +on block and low crushed (It had projectile invincibility as well which I thought was silly).

But I’m not bothered by it at all anymore, but I am bothered by the sheer volume of times that the Gen player jumped in. God that was frustrating to watch.

[cali-killa]

Yo they changed elena’s jump roundhouse? It no longer causes juggle state and hits twice now…did it always do that?

[KitL19]

It was always like that. The second hit was always height dependent.

[Album] Elena Hitboxes

Uploaded her normal’s hitboxes.

[onemic]

It’s a fucking 15 frame overhead into full combo. If it were able to cleanly beat things out then it would be broken.
There are plenty of things to complain about with Elena. That is not one of them.

nah, it’s stupid. It’s the same for all versions. It gets beaten by literally everything even though it’s airborne. based on its limitations of range and the fact that it’s an airborne move it should beat out a short at the very least. I’d even say it should be able to beat out lows in general, but i’ll stick with only shorts for now…fuck it, it should beat those too considering how unsafe it is. Going even further, the move, even though airborne loses to throws as well…

[MyKiLL]

It’s a fucking 15 frame overhead into full combo. If it were able to cleanly beat things out then it would be broken.

It was a gotdamn crouching short. Again, if you’re 20 feet in the air, what’s the very last thing you expect to beat you out of it? A quick, small, low hitting, meant-to-open-you-up-for-standing, crouching short. Where is the logic in having an aerial move, that literally leaves the ground throughout its entirety, be beaten out by some crusty old man’s toes sliding 5 inches across the floor and back? I’ve been beaten out of Mallet more times than I care to admit, a lot of from bullshit normals that have no business beating it out.

Standing Jabbed, fine.
Crouch strong, kind of iffy.
Crouch jabbed, pretty much bullshit.
But crouching lowed? Out of the sky? Wrap your brain around that.

Mallet Mash is meant to punish you for crouch-blocking. Elena, up until Ultra, has always been about having a high/low playstyle. This is a pretty big issue.

There are plenty of things to complain about with Elena. That is not one of them.

The hell it ain’t. Her hurtbox shouldn’t have to be such a glaring issue, but since every other player feels entitled to cry broken because she avoids certain normals and cause mothafucka’s blockstrings to whiff crouch blocking, why shouldn’t I be entitled to complain about Mallet’s hurtbox being vulnerable to low-hitting attacks? I’ve been wanting this character to replace my main Oni since she was announced for porting. I’ve been grinding her out exclusively since I started playing 3rd Strike, having fun and dominating. Like hell I shouldn’t complain about, who should be, my main gotdamn character.

You people, man.

[the7k]

At the very least, one of her Mallet Smashes should crush low. Probably H version. It’s pretty useless as it is - one of her suffocatingly high number of false options.

[Sprint]

Animation-wise, Elena plants her other foot on the floor 1-2 frames before swinging her leg down for the hit. Up until this point she goes over low moves just fine, but if she tries to stand on somebody’s limb then she gets hit by it.

Data-wise, she is classed as airborne until the move hits. The hit itself is grounded. If you pay attention you can see her other leg planted firmly on the ground.

It behaved similarly in 3S, with the difference being that when Elena lands on a low in 3S she gets hit and stays on the ground, allowing the opponent to combo her. (edit: and yes you could even throw her out of its landing in 3S)

Seriously. Fuck your whining.

[KitL19]

A friend said he had to log in to see it so I’m going to see if it works as a forum link. Place holder until I update the frame data thread.

[Album] Elena Hitboxes

This should work

[MyKiLL]

It behaved similarly in 3S, with the difference being that when Elena lands on a low in 3S she gets hit and stays on the ground, allowing the opponent to combo her. (edit: and yes you could even throw her out of its landing in 3S)

Except when it’s spaced to actually hit the fucking target. Blocked or not. Unless the opponent mashed(or just randomly pressed a button) they’re more likely to anti-air it than have her land squarely amidst the active frames of a light normal, leaving her standing. And second, who in their right minds would forgo parrying Mallet by attempting to throw as she lands instead? Nevermind the fact that it damn near never happens during a match when Elena knows what she’s doing.

Animation-wise, Elena plants her other foot on the floor 1-2 frames before swinging her leg down for the hit. Up until this point she goes over low moves just fine, but if she tries to stand on somebody’s limb then she gets hit by it.

Data-wise, she is classed as airborne until the move hits. The hit itself is grounded. If you pay attention you can see her other leg planted firmly on the ground.

Seriously. Fuck your whining.

Gen’s Mantis Stance cr.lk is 4f on start-up, then 2f active. So you’re telling me, with those 1-2 frames she has her foot planted and his active frames just happens to overlap on her ankles, just BARELY negating her attack, I should just chalk this up, losing an entire bar of meter, to just pure dumb luck? And I should just sit by and be okay with that? Fuck you, sir. That is bullshit and you know it.

[Sprint]

If you’re throwing out a random EX Mallet Smash like that then you’re already chalking your game up to dumb luck.

Edit: Also in 3S, Mallet Smash loses outright when it lands on somebody’s outstretched leg. Even if said Mallet Smash was going to hit them square in the head it will get beaten out clean.