Elena General Discussion

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
661

Okay so after nearly two months of Elena play. It’s time for a progress report write up and how I feel about certain tools.

I preface this by saying she is definitely bottom tier. Her tools aren’t great by design and a lot of system mechanics ruin it for her and as such you need to play so solid with her to win that you’re just better off playing another character who does her game better (Rose or Chun li). Which brings me to my main point which to ignore her high low game almost entirely. Sneak in the occasional F+MK and empty cr.mks but don’t cancel into mallet smash ever or lynx tail. I’m pretty bad and I rarely get caught by these moves if ever. Your best strategy like I said is to play extremely solid.

Her AA normals are really bad. The only viable tools are st.mk (rarely), cr.HK, cr.HP, and st.MP (most consistent). Each AA is better for certain match ups where st.mp is the catch all option for poor damage.

AA tier list: EX SW> cr.HP> st.mp> cr.HK=Slide > St.MK >B+HK > st.lp>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any other button>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Getting hit>St.HP

The trickiest thing is knowing which AA to use in which situation and the easiest answer is always use cr.HP and use EX SW as a reversal only when you have 3 meters stocked so you can FADC (unless you absolutely have a read). If you absolutely have to use a semi last minute AA use st.MP in the long run you will be a lot better off.

Her blockstrings are really bad most of them have a 1 frame gap so pressuring it nigh impossible. But just because they are terrible doesn’t mean you should be predictable. Instead of ending strings in cr.MP (Which doesn’t do shit) end it with st.lk it has more pushback and if you do it twice you can push them out of range and into f+MK range (ie cr.lpx2 > st.lkx2). You can even use cr.MPx2 or cr.LP > cr.HP >st.lk the gaps in these moves are huge but it’s far better to keep your opponent guessing rather that doing the same tired strings, and a perfect example is when a Rose player does the occasional cr.mpx2.

Things to avoid:

-Never cancel st.lk into any lynx tail other than LK the pushback makes random hits whiff frequently.

-Never use st.HP ever sometimes I accidentally get this move and it often costs me the round. But why use this move when you can use the more consistent st.HK > cr.LP > cr.MP link? This moves costs you rounds and should never be used ever.

-Spending meter: Don’t spend meter unless you absolutely have to like if your are a range where you’re certain some hits from spin scythe will whiff. Don’t do some fancy FADC combo unless you’re absolutely sure it’s gonna kill. You just waste meter when there is a 1 meter alternative that does just as much with a little more effort.

-Don’t use HK lynx this move is ass certain hits whiff a lot and it’s a true blockstring more often than not an experienced person won’t get hit by this if mk lynx wouldn’t work, and it makes you even more negative for no reason. With some characters I’ve managed to just walk up before punishing it. (pretty funny)

-Use her st.mk> cr.HP target combo more. People hilariously try to punish it because it looks more unsafe than it actually is. If you ever land it and hopefully you followed my advice in regards to meter habits you should be able to land easy supers.

-Mod your stick lol.

Edit: Last tip B+HK or st.HK? St.HK always (at least until the CH bug is fixed). If you ever land B+HK never press a button afterwards it’s not worth it and often times I find people just DP. St.HK leads to your safest high damage combos and is just as safe on block (plus it’s safer damage) and better frame advantage when meaty. If you think it’s a good spot to use B+HK you’re probably better off using st.lk to build space.

That’s pretty much all I have for now outside of setplay. (not really into setplay though it rots your brain)

662

Agree with most of what you said, though I’d argue against your point of never using b.HK. I’d say it should be 90/10 split between the two. st.hk is your go-to for counter pokes and meaties, but if you are ever trying to blow up a crouch tech b.HK is always the safer alternative as you can’t be jabbed out of it, nor can you be crouch teched out of it like st.hk can. Add those two things plus it’s 2 frame slower startup and you also have a move that’s more likely to catch late techs as well.

Elena is for sure bottom tier though. I initially had a glimmer of hope, but after almost 2 months of play offline and online, playing a variety of MU’s, theres no way shes not bottom. I even noticed that in certain MU’s(i.e. Gouken) using her EX DP as a reversal without FADC’ing it will almost always spell your doom as only the first hit of the DP will hit on certain characters crouching in most cases. welp. That patch that’s coming out makes me unsure whether to be scared or excited, because who knows if the changes are only gonna be hurtboxes(Bad) or something more extensive.(good)

And ya, anyone serious about playing Elena pretty much needs to mod their stick. I’m still waiting for PS360+'s to be back in stock so I can finally mod mine.

663

You can be jabbed out of B+HK though; it just depends on the character (Cody definitely can) and even worse it’s slow as dirt (it’s the same speed as her slow ass st.HP). Most use I got out of it was using it like a pseudo dhalsim slide vs jump ins sneaking under jump ins in a weird way or beating out full screen spiral arrows, and the latter shouldn’t be even thought about. Although I guess a 90/10 split is a fair way to partition the usage and if that’s how you see it then I’m definitely just preaching to the choir lol.

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY‌ Why do you disagree against advice? Which part do you disagree with? Trust me dude I play against pretty decent Elena’s (probably the best one is Qs_Frenzy I hate to use PP as a metric but 4k with Elena is pretty solid) and I beat them consistently for the same bad habits.

Can you tell me one reason why you disagree with the advice given?

I certainly hope it’s not the tier placement.

664

.

I disagree with just about everything you’ve said. The tier issue isn’t something I’m going to continue to argue about. The biggest issue I took with your post is you writing of st. Hp. Then the meter thing and then the hk stuff.

Maybe it’s the absolute you use when talking about certain stuff. But I can’t agree with most of what you said.

665

St.hp and HK lynx are terrible though save for their limited situational uses. St.HP for punishes against certain characters, fadc combo filler, and as AA against grapplers…and Rufus. HK lynx for confirms into fadc combos. Admittedly I still use HK lynx as a mixup tool from time to time as it seems like its the one move players have yet to adapt to offline or on as no one ever punishes me for using it.

Outside of those situational uses though, they should never be used

666

Yeah he said never use it. So it’s different from what you’re saying and the reason I disagreed with his post.

667

So when are you going to land HK lynx when you would’nt have landed an MK lynx? St.HP is rubbish and if you’re already devoted to using Elena you should use st.HK >cr.lp which yields more damage and it’s safer than whiffing st.hp. St.HP is super character specific and even worse it’s st.mp bait. Every character that it hits crouching can st.mp your follow up.

If you’re spending meter for 389 damage standing only and 285 vs (instead of doing a meterless 284) how are you going to make your wake up safe? It’s not even rocket science your wake up is terrible and you need meter to make it safe. People fall out of DPs all the time for Elena.Even more importantly, how do you close a round? cr.mp buffered into super or TC4 (especially the last 1) is much better as a round closer. Just think of it like playing Rose save your meter for when you really need it and use U2 to gain health.

Hell the advice I gave in a nutshell, is to play her like 3s Elena (sans B+HK) because her high-low suffers from Focus attacks and her moves are super slow.

If you’re taking issue with the B+HK thing this is how I look at it. 138 damage on CH at best vs around 309 damage universally. Slower startup of B+HK and only a tiny bit better recovery kills it for me, maybe if it got CH damage that’d be fine but it doesn’t (or if it moved backwards).

And if you disagree with about everything, maybe that’s what you need to change about your play because a lot of it is pretty common sense.

668

Very interesting post. I like most of it. Not sure about the reference to stick modding, though; am I missing something?

First, I find the AA ranking very interesting. I feel like I don’t use c.fierce as much as I should, but I also feel it needs more time to start up than I usually have. I’ll try it out more. I still maintain that s.jab is the best anti-divekick tool Elena has, but as noted, each AA has very unique applications.

I absolutely agree that FADC combos are pretty much unnecessary. Having meter for H.Scratch Wheel and EX.Scratch Wheel FADC is really important. If you want to style or set up Healing you can do H.Lynx Tail > LV2 Focus to crumple, but I would only do this off a max damage punish with s.fierce or something.

I agree with using s.short to end blockstrings and for L.Lynx Tail cancels. The move is really good and the JP Elena players already have it ingrained in their play from it being so critical to her pre-patch. I expect Western Elenas to use this move as a cornerstone of her play in the near future.

The argument about s.fierce is mostly warranted, but I still hold that it has extremely limited applications. It’s not a good move and it is risky, but it’s still available, so I try abuse it in the very very few circumstances I can.

Finally, I 100% agree that trying to really abuse Elena’s high/low game is not a super good gameplan. It’s a gameplan to have, especially when you can sense people getting annoyed by the character, but the plan on its own is very weak and full of gaps. This character has a very skewed risk/reward design concept, so play how you like, but I feel like the best way to win with her is to attempt to control certain aspects of the opposing character and abuse those. Either stuff their jumpins, stop them from jumping altogether, whiff punish them on the ground or just control ground space entirely; these are a few things she can do that are player- and matchup-dependent and I believe the onus is on the Elena player to really zoom in on both what the opponent and the opposing character cannot or will not deal with and really abuse that.

Thankfully, Elena is so poorly designed that she doesn’t even have very many set play options available to her. It truly does rot your brain, LOL.

P.S. - Bottom tier for sure, use sweep more, backdash is good except for calling out DPs (it sucks at this) and is OS Brave Dance useful?

669

So when are you going to land HK lynx when you would’nt have landed an MK lynx? St.HP is rubbish and if you’re already devoted to using Elena you should use st.HK >cr.lp which yields more damage and it’s safer than whiffing st.hp. St.HP is super character specific and even worse it’s st.mp bait. Every character that it hits crouching can st.mp your follow up.

What does mk lt have to do with anything? Does mk lt fadc give you plus frame advantage? You can literally combo into almost all her moves. Why would I want st.mp? 40 damage? You’re argument is counter productive.
**
If you’re spending meter for 389 damage standing only and 285 vs (instead of doing a meterless 284) how are you going to make your wake up safe? It’s not even rocket science your wake up is terrible and you need meter to make it safe. People fall out of DPs all the time for Elena.Even more importantly, how do you close a round? cr.mp buffered into super or TC4 (especially the last 1) is much better as a round closer. Just think of it like playing Rose save your meter for when you really need it and use U2 to gain health.
**

Meter management is important. Holding meter to sit on super isn’t correct. There’s going to be times when you want to fadc for bigger damage or for safety. Or for ex SW or for EX RH. For different situations you’re going to want to spend meter.

**Hell the advice I gave in a nutshell, is to play her like 3s Elena (sans B+HK) because her high-low suffers from Focus attacks and her moves are super slow.

If you’re taking issue with the B+HK thing this is how I look at it. 138 damage on CH at best vs around 309 damage universally. Slower startup of B+HK and only a tiny bit better recovery kills it for me, maybe if it got CH damage that’d be fine but it doesn’t (or if it moved backwards).**

I’ll group this as one another counter productive argument. Why don’t you mention s.hk being focus bait? Is that something only b hk is capable of? I’ll disregard playing her like her 3s counterpart.
**
And if you disagree with about everything, maybe that’s what you need to change about your play because a lot of it is pretty common sense.**

My game will evolve into what I believe is the best way to play Elena. It’s not going to develop based around your opinion. If it did I think my growth as an Elena player would be stifled.

670

Yea Elena is bottom mid, (rock bottom if she lose her crouching hurtbox) its been stressful lol, everytime am tempted to go back to rose, Ibuki, Evil Ryu, Chun li, Poison but I find her alot of fun. Also tried the combofiend recommendation of the high low game and ultra 1 being better, which is bs imo, so many times when I tried ultra 1, I could have used healing and actually won the match, and her high low game gets you screwed for the most part, her moves are too slow for that high low game, still use it but don’t make it the main thing imo. Have been getting wins alot more from spacing people out and spacing my normals so they make wrong moves for me to get in, I found that being at slide range scares people more than her high low game, they go nuts on focus attack and thats when I use RH or the EX version. Her slk imo is her main tool for spacing peeps out, and it annoys me that they nerfed her main move and more so taking away her ability to cancel CRHP, she needed that. Also found use for her jumping HK at last, stuffs mbison’s stomp moves clean for 120-130 dmg and also ehonda’s sumo smash but that needs to be timed right. Her anti airs are okish,(poison anti airs are worse imo) really wish that her sweep had 1 more active frame and better recovery and her CRHP had 2 more active frames, her stlp is great for stuffing divekickers and her stmp is fairly decent, but i try to use CRHP over stmp for dmg for the most part. Overall fun but stressful to use Elena.

671

Okay now this right here is silly. When I go on a 20 game win streak often against you or a 10 game streak as Elena often I think you shouldn’t be so hard headed or ignorant. My point is if you don’t win, then your tactics aren’t working and maybe you need to take the advice of others. What’s stifling your growth with Elena is your inability to take relatively simple tips.

And holding meter for super is how a lot of characters create favorable matchups. I don’t even feel like responding to you anymore because you’re just being a contrarian.

Edit: Also wtf are you talking about B+HK is nearly identical to HK so if 1 is focus bait the other 1 is. In fact B+HK pulls you forward and has less range. If you’re getting hit by focus attacks then use st.lk > MK lynx to discourage it. In fact if you read what I said is play Elena I said play her like 3s Elena without the B+HK benefit

672

@KitL19‌ Wait is it confirmed that B+HK has a CH bug cause that would mean we get a fix when that patch comes out. You have no idea how annoying it is to read a Ryu correctly and punish their Cr.Mk get a counter hit and get absolutely nothing for it.

673

Yeah man I’ve tested it quite a bit and I’m sure other Elena players have tried as well at most I’ve linked cr.lp and st.lk and that’s only off of a meaty hit. I’m crossing my fingers while hoping capcom fixes it.

@yannick

Stick modding so that you can B-Link and land her 1 frame lp links like the were 2 frame links (st.HK > cr.LP) or her cr.lk > cr.LP link a lot easier.

OS brave dance is just about as useful as any Ultra OS IMO, but it has the added benefit of not giving your opponent meter (for the time being). The problem is that it’s not her best ultra unless you are a godlike Elena player and the matchups where you would want to OS a backdash are matchups where you’d normally want to have U2.

@solwin‌

The more I play Elena the more I think cr.HP being cancelable would’ve been like putting a bandaid over a deep gash. It looks like it’d help, but the real issues came from nerfing her mallet, her j.MP hitbox (screwed her TC), cr.lk+st.lk frame advantage, her dps and her meter gain. As well as the lack of foresight when it came down to move properties in general (ie a focus break attack the whiffs vs a majority of focus attacks, an attack that is supposed to blow up crouching moves losing to a lot of crouching moves, etc).

674

Yes you beat me on a consistent basis. That doesn’t mean I’m going to live on your every word. I’m not very good at this game and you exploit my bad habits. Kudos to you man.

675

Elena is definitely making me look to mod my stick. Would I be able to wire select and LP to the same button with a piggyback and have it work, or do I really need to drill another hole? Piggybacking seems like the way to go, but I dunno if that’ll work with Japanese wiring (I’m used to American arcade cabs) or if it’ll even work if you press select and LP on the exact same frame.

676

woah, you cant wire them both to the same button can you? You wouldnt even need to plink then…

677

I don’t really see it as a problem, but I’m the kinda guy who has no problem turning Samurai Shodown 2 into a six-button Capcom-style game by having buttons for 2xPunch and 2xKick.

I just don’t really see it as that big of a deal. As far as I understand, it wasn’t something looked down upon after the Full Schedule debacle cleared up.

678

On the Hori fighting edge you can have 2 different buttons working as the same input. It doesn’t help much. It feels like if you hit it with regular plink timing then the game just refuses the second input.

679

Back has to be pressed one frame later so assigning it to the same button achieves nothing. You can probably run the ‘back’ wire through a delay circuit, but then it qualifies as a macro that will be banned from any offline event.

My stick is wired like this:

Ground wire isn’t shown. It connects to everything as normal.
The switch has no ground. The wires connected to it are the live ones, with the middle terminal becoming the live wire of the physical button.

P.S.
The reason for the odd button layout is that the trigger buttons on my Madcatz Fightpad PCB have a tiny bit of lag. Maybe a quarter of a frame at most.

Some games require pressing buttons on the exact same frame, and the lag occasionally causes the trigger buttons to be activated a frame late (even if you wire everything to the same physical button). Rather than waste time looking for a PCB that doesn’t have trigger lag, I just rewired it to use the “Controller B” layout with the triggers on the left since they’re more convenient on that side.

680

So I just watched Sako dismantle some Ibuki player. The quality was low but still had some good stuff. It’s in the video thread and over a hour long.

The set was very one sided in Elena’s favor. There was a lot of stuns in this set. Sako was using a lot of mk lynx tail on hit and on block. It rarely got punished not that the guy didn’t know to punish it was just spaced well enough that it couldn’t be punished.

Sako was also doing a lot of FADC combos. So his damage and stun were pretty hogh. He FADC all of her moves. When he got a hit it was massive damage. He would go into hk or hp off a hk lt fadc depending on if they were standing or crouching.

EX MS rarely appeared out of combos. He used it mostly off of cr.mp from max range. His corner control was really good also. Looking at this match it seems like Ibuki is at a disadvantage. She really couldn’t deal with Elena’s ground gsme. I don’t think she has the pokes to deal with Elena.