Effective Keep Away Strategy (Doom on Point)

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1

In my post about assist focus, i touched on the difference between a Rush Down strategy and a Keep Away strategy but i mainly talking about rush down because that is my favored style of play. However, Doom’s Keep Away is among on of the best in the game due to his variety of great projectiles, so i thought up some strategies i use in my own game but applied to a more Keep away essential style.

Before i post the info, i know i have a tendency to be very long winded with my posts so I will try my hardest to be concise. Please read my entire post i still will take alot of time and effort into writing it and it will be to your benefit. I would also like to cite my definition of keep away because im sure i will have to refer back to it in replies.

Keep Away: Another Strategy in which the main goal is to keep as much distance from your opponent as possible. Because of the nature of this strategy it is important to use safe moves that will still do damage whether it be chip or on hit it doesn’t matter the damage is still done. As long as the opposing character stay at a safe distance the strat will be successful.

Essentials of Dooms Keep Away:
As a keep away Doom you should set some rules for yourself to help make sure you don’t stray into risky action.

[LIST]
[]Being Mid-Full screen is the most important thing, at this range you are safe from any close range attacks.
[]Call Hidden Missiles as much as possible as long as you can get out 3-5 missiles before the opponent can attempt to hit you.
[*]When the opponent has trapped you in the corner, your main goal is to move to the other side of the screen by any means necessary, you must forget offense at that point and focus on defense.
[/LIST]
With those three rules said the next thing you must figure out is what projectiles to use other than missiles.

At mid-full (first full screen) range:
[LIST]
[]Use ground Photon shot’s, not missiles. At this range l. photon shot is the safest because it comes out the quickest and is pretty much impossible to evade forcing the opponent to block and giving you time to move back more. i would almost never use plasma beam here because of the risk of a jump in, even though it does significantly more chip. Once blocked you should proceed to continue backing up to full (full) screen range.
[]Full (expanded or Full screen) Range: Use Missiles first. you want your opponent to block so you can deal the maximum amount of chip. During this missile call if you have an assist that can do even more chip i would call them as well. Then as the missiles connect do plasma beam of whatever strength you chose. After this you should wait a second and gauge what your opponent will do. Most people will super jump, in which case, call missiles again as an anti-air and do the same thing again. If they start to dash forward they will close the gap quick to mid-full range so i would use a photo shot barrage and try to slow them down then back up more. if you are already in the corner you should now be thinking of how you will escape.
[/LIST]
With this style of play i think its best to have a get off assist such as haggar and a chip/long range assist like unibeam or even a hadouken. Haggar you will mainly use when pushed into a corner and get combo damage like that or when they are forced to block at close range you can escape the corner and set up again.

As long as you follow the 3 rules set you will be untouchable. However, due to the high speed nature of the game and the variable of assists it will be difficult.

How to counter Assists:
Before the game starts you should be wary of what assists your opponent is using. Most teams only use assists that are effective up close so you won’t really have to worry. But some will use assists such as drones or disrupter that will give you a problem. Here are things to look out for so that you can still play successful keep away.

[LIST]
[]When at mid-screen, try and use haggar as a scapegoat and deploy him and just run away if you feel he might be killed use a super to make him safe. Ground Ph.A can be used simply to protect haggar while also still doing chip and gaining you access to full screen.
[]For long range assists try and just wait out their use. For instance if they just call disruptor from full screen block it or jump it then proceed to set up. For characters with teleport left/right unblockables you should simply call missiles and your long range assist at the same time pressing the buttons simultaneously when you think the unblockable is coming. This will effectively anti-air the teleport and either nullify or beat out their assist call.
[*]For Assists like akuma tatsu make sure you call your haggar to beat it out. try not to call him unless you see akuma coming or need to escape the corner.
[/LIST]
Just remember also a few things when using this strategy.

[LIST]
[]People will get fed up and try and random hyper. try and look out for moments like this. Don’t go into auto-pilot when keeping away. I think this is the hardest part about the strategy. Just like CQC you should mainly do things that your are almost sure will work and look for patterns or reactions the your opponent is doing before committing to anything.
[]Going with the last point, keep an eye on your opponents meter bar. Especially beam hyper characters, they will most likely use all of their supers trying to stop keep away so once they’ve exhausted all their meter you can free use your projectiles without worry.
[]Stay smart and safe when an opponent is closing in. Don’t forget to abuse your invincible assist but also cover him from danger, but from a distance. i highly suggest using haggar because as we all know Doom gets amazing benefits from him.
[]Don’t forget to always be looking for option-select air throws, people will be normal jumping like crazy trying to get in, so you will have many opportunities especially when your in the corner. Just be careful and make sure you don’t get grabbed yourself.
[*]Don’t be afraid to use your supers for get off me’s. Whenever you feel like a situation can’t be dealt with by simply using normals or special moves just throw out a hyper, almost all of Doom’s hypers are safe especially at mid-full screen. you can also use them if you anticipate an assist call but they will not do much damage.
[/LIST]

2

Against teleporters you recommend using hidden missiles to stuff crossup and overhead… Would photon shot H be a viable alternative? Against people like Wesker, Dormammu and Dante (after I’ve made them burn their meter) if I anticipate the teleport I use finger lasers H to cover an area around doom (this is also assuming my haggar is dead as I run him 2nd and doom as anchor, but this is a different subject). If they don’t teleport, then I’m relatively safe. If they teleport and block correctly, I have the opportunity to buffer QCB and photon array if I have to to push them out a little and force them to block. I haven’t tested hidden missiles as AA/anti teleport but I feel like photon shot is a strong alternative as well.

secondly against people super jumping in, how do you feel about instant sphere flame on reaction to them pressing a button during their jump in? Smart players will block and grab you during the rain phase of the super, but if it hits you can potentially XFC to sphere flame again for a dead character. I’m on the fence as to what to do about this as well.

In retrospect I feel like against teleports, jumping and holding back + option select throw is a good option as well, you eliminate getting instant overhead’d and you can start an OTG combo, otherwise you just block.

Thoughts?

3

Keepaway is close to impossible in this game. Keepaway is weak and it’s known Doom’s keepaway was made weaker compared to MvC2.

Keepaway builds poor meter, free win for Phoenix teams

Forget keepaway and just run a “chip” team where the focus is causing as much block damage and frustration as possible so your opponent plays bad trying to get the lead back and you catch them slipping and hit them with a painful combo and go back to chipping them.

Plasma beam can be ducked by small characters, catch on to this and throw rocks instead.

H Plasma Beam beats all low priority projectiles, dies to Med and High (supers) projectiles

Photon shot is good for screen filling and restricting movement and forcing block.

Not sure how you’re making full screen missile calls safe. I usually wait til they super jump and get a few out or need a lockdown assist (none of which work fullsreen). Awesome for calling on incoming character.

Oh I wish Doom could be played with a Doom Missile assist lol. Best assist for this style.

Hadouken and similar assist are ass

Dorm’s Dark Hole/Pillar
Tasky’ Arrows (Horiz does exceptional chip)
Dante Jam Session
Haggar Lariat
Trish Peekabo
Hsein Ko Pendulum (Armored)
Akuma Tatsu
Storm Whirlwind
Ammy Cold Star/Bloom
Morrigan Dark Harmonizer
Iron Man Repulsor/Unibeam
Hulk AA assist
Doom all assist
Chris Mine/Gun Fire
MODOK Barrier/Bomb (forgot his other assist)

just to name a few assist I think help with keepaway/chip teams

4

I disagree. I think Keepaway builds up too much meter for what it is. Plasma Beam H builds a healthy chunk of meter even on block for being just a single attack, especially since there are times where you can time a Hidden Missile to force the opponent to block 2 Plasma Beam H in a row. It is definitely a free win for Phoenix teams though.

You can make full screen missiles safer by using a Photon Shot L first and then just calling a couple missiles or calling an assist like Jam Session part way through the missile call to stop the opponent’s advance. Even with the assists that I have (Hulk’s Gamma Charge and Dante’s Crystal), I’m usually able to call a few missiles in at full screen - but you do have to be smart about it.

Just a small note regarding the different levels of Photon Shot: There’s no difference in start-up, damage, or recovery between the 3 versions. L, M, and H only serve to control the speed that the projectiles travel. I do still recommend the use of L though because the projectiles move super slow, so they buy you more time to do whatever.

5

Well heres the thing, against wesker photon H is more risky because he can teleport through them and end up right next to you, with missiles even if he ends up in front, behind or above the missiles will eventually hit him, through either a combo breaker or he’ll teleport into the pod on the ground. Missiles are just much safer and they deal more damage on hit and block. Photon shot is more for characters like She-hulk and Wolverine who have to approach Doom slowly on foot. the photon shots mainly should be used to slow them down and give you time to back up.

For super-jump i would’t advise using sphere flame all the time, but if you have the meter and feel it might hit i don’t see the harm. However, for anti-airs you should mainly conserve meter for combos and use normals like missiles. Even dumb players will have enough time to block sphere flame in a super jump but missiles will stall them in the air a bit giving you time to either back up or go under them. I definitely recommend sphere flame as an anti-air for normal jump ins, though it takes a bit of reaction speed it will more likely connect and then you can x-factor for another one.

As for teleports, its harder to option-select throw people teleporting simply because they change directions so its a little risky. i think its best to just use missiles, because it will either hit them on the way up or on the way down. If you feel you have the reaction speed to air throw it though or you know its coming option select throw is definitely a better option.

6

I dont care if i double posted the first post was asking for my advice but this post is just soooo misinformed it needs addressing.

First of all, don’t run with the bandwagon of keep away being impossible, i want you to think outside the box. I’ve already said because of the nature of the game keep away is definitely harder to maintain then rush down but it is very possible and possibly even more effective then some rush down strategies.
You obviously either didn’t read or didn’t comprehend my definition of keep away because it encompasses what you call a “chip” team. if my words are too complicated i can dumb it down for you. What you described as a chip team is just a part of what a Keep away team does.

Second, This is not necessarily a free win for phoenix teams. I’ve read anti-phoenix ****strategies from this very website that advise killing a team and still being able to beat phoenix when she has five bars. It’s actually a very simple solution which will be easily overcome since you are still at such a big advantage in number of characters. You simply sit in a corner and block and then x factor when you can’t take any more chip. with this strategy you run out phoenix’s x factor and limit her mix ups to grab or overhead because she can no longer cross you up in the corner. Once her x factor is run out it will be much easier to finish her off.

The only character in the game that can duck plasma beam to my knowledge is ammy. I haven’t played in 3 weeks but the last time i remember no one else can duck it. if im wrong it still does the job of keeping the opponent at full screen, which is the goal of a Keep away team.

Not sure what game your playing where full screen missiles aren’t safe. If your talking about against characters like Ironman who have a fullscreen beam, I already posted that you should use your assist to force them to block as you call missiles. Against the rest of the 75-80% of the casts that have no full screen projectile as fast as unibeam, the missiles are completely safe because even if they close the gap the missiles will hit them on the way down.

thank you for this list, i wanted to make my post more concise so i left it out but you did the work for me here.

I’m sorry if the way i responded offends you, but your reply offended me because you either didn’t even read my post or just couldn’t comprehend it. I guess i need to either type in all caps or type with limited vocabulary.

7

Some good information is here, but I was a bit surprised to see no mention of molecular shield. At mid range it is a better option than photon shot in my opinion because of the much faster startup (7/10/13) frames respectively, while still providing the blockstun needed to force an H plasma beam. That being said I use doom much more offensively than the strategy in this thread would suggest, and it’s value is mostly in block strings and frame traps for me so that’s just my take on it. Still it should be a staple in his arsenal and is very underrated.

8

This is why people have a problem with you. You say things like “I’m sorry if the way I responded offends you”, but you immediately and unnecessarily threw in an insult following your apology. Even if Mr. X offended you because he said some things that you already covered in your post, his intent was not to offend. Your intent was clearly to offend him at several points in your post.

I want us all to get along. I enjoy reading through your posts, and I dislike reading people’s attacks on you as much as your attacks on other people. It’s obvious Mr. X didn’t have the same definition for Keepaway as you - but is it really necessary to attack him while you point out that you already covered what he’s talking about?

X-23 might be able to duck it, but I’m not really sure without testing it specifically.

I agree with you that full screen missiles can be done, but it’s not quite as easy as you’re putting it. Problem is that characters like Iron Man don’t need to block assists while you call missiles. They can beam hyper both Doom and the assist. Additionally, many characters that don’t have full screen hypers do have enough speed to reach Doom in time to punish him. Most characters with tri-jumps for instance. You pointed out that if they close the gap the missile will hit them on the way down. While is true, it is a little bit short sighted because if you’re only trying to get out 3-5 missiles and they only hit you with a 2 hit combo (maybe more), the exchange is in their favor in terms of damage and they closed the distance. In fact, some characters can punish you with a full combo if they know the match-up well. Wesker has combo options to avoid missiles mid-combo using teleports. Dante’s Stinger also has a knack for causing missiles to miss at the last second (effective enough that Hidden Missiles is one of my favorite assists to fight against with Dante).

Again, safe full screen missiles is possible, but I don’t think Mr. X’s question is unwarranted.

9

I read your definition of keepaway and your definition of keepaway is close to impossible in this game. A chip team which I defined is more practical then your keepaway in MvC3. Your goal is to keep distance, my goal is to make them anxious.

Phoenix can kill you off a grab and overhead. I doubt you’re reacting to a XF3 sped up Phoenix overhead between mashing crL. Keepaway is a free 5 bars for Phoenix and she can smoke your team in 10 Marvel seconds.

Height chart

Morrigan, Ammy, Phoenix, D. Phoenix can duck Plasma beam crouching
Varies on X-23 and Wolverine

Missiles:
Meter is plentiful, hyper punish or DHC into someone who will. Kind of rare to not be sitting on at least 1 bar.
Missiles also conspicuously disappearing after you call them. I can’t be the only one this happens to.
Point Doom = opponent has assists, probably a beam assist
Combo carries you making missiles not interrupt
Trade not in your favor if they do interrupt unless you can combo off it

I will say missiles make a good distraction if your opponent is scared of them

Trish Peekabo is the trap she places in the air that catches people, not a beam.

10

Thanks for the height chart. I didn’t know that was out there. I also have missiles disappear, but only when I’m trying to set-up for incoming characters after I kill someone. I’m not sure I understand why it happens sometimes and not others, but fortunately, my missiles come back more often than not.

11

honestly, I agree that keepaway in MvC3 is possible but not as viable in this game (compared to mvc2),* especially* against good phoenix teams. It may be possible to get a win against phoenix teams with this approach, but I’d say the probability of that happening is about 2 out of every 10 games assuming you’re fighting a competent player. (If you factor in bad luck and mistakes on the opponent’s part then maybe 3 of 10) It’s just a disadvantageous method of playing against Phoenix teams.

As far as playing keepaway with Doom, I really don’t think it’s one of the best in the game and it’s definitely not something you should solely rely on, but hey, it works. In my opinion, the most effective way of utilizing Doom is to vary your style based on primarily rushing down, trying to get in, and sprinkling some keepaway here and there based on the situation or match up. (Similiar to Mag, Dorm, Dante, etc.) Some character specific matchups that would suit a much more defensive approach are: Tron, Haggar, She Hulk, …

Another opponent this hybrid style works extremely well against is Super Skrull, especially those who love to teleport. The only thing you need is Hidden Missiles. I recommend using the missiles sparingly and in groups of 3-4 on anticipation to teleports. (You can throw out more but don’t get too carried away because obviously Doom is extremely vulnerable when he does this) It can even be used on reaction, but the timing is extremely tight. This also actually works on Dante’s teleport, but Molecular shield is much more practical in getting him off you if you anticipate it. I wouldn’t recommend photon shots much because of the possibility of it trading.

It’s even a good approach against super jumps or tri-jumps toward Doom. Just throwing out Sphere Flames work, but chances are they won’t work a 2nd or 3rd time since it can get a bit predictable. (Not to mention it’s a waste of meter and based on a guess) I’d say try mixing it up and incorporate (M) Molecular Shield since I find it easy to hit confirm. If it hits then throw out a sphere flame for an easy combo, if it doesn’t it’s free chip. Again I wouldn’t tell you to use this all the time or abuse it, it’s just another strategy you can implement so you don’t get too predictable. It’s not good to be so one dimensional especially with a character like Doom who has a good amount of situational options.

12

keep away/chip is possible in thsi game, but clearly you would have to build around the mentality.

i know for sure, that there are a bunch of characters that can punish missiles full screen without the use of hyper.

i know x 23 can go under beams by doing cr H or something and make up ground quickly

like korr has mentioned, clearly doom has a lot of tools to do a variety of things. I dont necessarily think that he does any of those tools well (aside from build meter when he has an opponent cornered). with proper assists, yes he can do certain things better (cold star lariat help his rushdown greatly, beam assists and AA like gamma charge help his zoning greatly). But you can’t just expect him to do one strat the entire game and get away against competent players. You have to mix it up.

Seriously, I feel like EVERYONE in the doom thread knows the information you are posting here Day1God. its like repetitive, yet you take these small pot shots at everyone who has taken the time to read your posts to pull value. I anxiously anticipate the day you get back on US soil to show us the proper way to play, because you talk very highly of yourself.

There is one right way to play doom, and that is the way that you feel most comfortable with

13

Thank you, and you are actually correct. I haven’t really tried to use molecular shield as a projectile i mainly use it in block strings. But thinking about it now it would probably work just as well or better for that purpose. Solid Suggestion, i wish other members here had half the brain you do. I want this to be an example of not where i compliment someone who agrees with me but of someone who read my post took something from it and built upon it.

Liquid: Like i said i don’t care for peoples respect especially not idiots who obviously skipped over reading comprehension in kindergarden because as you can see Mr.X was posting with a blindfold on again. I’m surprised he can read my insults more then my information. Someone once said i was playing a Naruto shtick, but if I had to make a dumb inference like that i would say i have more of a Dr.Doom shtick. Ignorance hurts me.

You liquid have garnered my respect but you also missed things i posted. I noted in things to look out for that characters with full screen hypers you should watch their meter and be careful. You have to remember your goal isn’t to go into auto-pilot when playing keep away, you must still accurately read situations probably even more so then rush down and so if done well you will learn to see when your opponent will try a random hyper and not call missiles. On a side note though, even if they do hyper you while your calling missiles, in my experience, as long as they don’t interrupt the beginning of the animation the missiles will interrupt the super.

You also slightly misunderstood me. you should always be trying to get all 8 missiles out, i said be able to get at least 3-5 missiles out. However what you said about some combo’s avoiding missiles is true. Here is where of course you must use your own discretion as a player in terms of what projectile to use when and against who. I only intend to open peoples eyes up to options im sure they haven’t tried yet.

Mr. X: i really hope you don’t intend to be my nemesis because im sure with the aid of the people here we will eventually convince you of how foolish your being. I will post it one more time and one more time only.

Keep Away: Another Strategy in which the main goal is to keep as much distance from your opponent as possible. Because of the nature of this strategy it is important to use safe moves that will still do damage whether it be chip or on hit it doesn’t matter the damage is still done. As long as the opposing character stay at a safe distance the strat will be successful.

And now since you obviously are struggling to understand i will break it down for you line for line.
[LIST]
[]Another Strategy in which the main goal is to keep as much distance from your opponent as possible.
[/LIST]
The word strategy is used implying that the focus of your play is based on such actions. The actions mentioned are keeping opponents away from you. In your stupidly named “Chip team” you do this.
[LIST]
[]Because of the nature of this strategy it is important to use safe moves that will still do damage whether it be chip or on hit it doesn’t matter the damage is still done.
[/LIST]
When i say safe moves it does not only mean projectiles, a normal done when the opponent has just come off block stun is still a safe move because they cannot attack you. Thus in a keep away team you will of course still use normal attacks from time to time, but the goal remains the same, stay away from the opponent as much as possible. While staying away and using projectiles your opponent may block, thus causing chip, however that is not really your concern, you are only concerned with keeping your character safe and dealing damage from a distance as much as possible.
[LIST]
[*]****As long as the opposing character stay at a safe distance the strat will be successful.
[/LIST]
If you are successful no matter who your playing against, whether it be phoenix or wolverine, if you properly apply this strategy you will win. Just like how London is within England, your “chip team” is within the definition of a keep away team.

Your specific comment about phoenix’s over head or grab is irrelevant to this thread, but if you wish to talk about it i suggest you take your ignorance to the anti-phoenix strat’s thread in the general discussion section. Maybe there they can cure you of your reading deficiencies. Oh but yes your height chart is actually helpful, I have no idea where you found it but thank you i can actually learn from this.

Korr1: I definitely agree with you that although this strategy can work it, it will be less effective against phoenix teams. I also agree to your point that a hybrid of both is better, i only wanted to enlighten people of the two ways of playing Doom, because i’ve seen most people play only one or just play this one inefficiently. I only disagree with the amount of missiles. I always shoot all the missiles because if you are hit out of them it will increase the chance the missiles will break the combo falling. I can understand though why in some situations using only 3-4 missiles is better though. In the strategy i have discussed here i still think its better to shoot all of them because you will mostly be doing it at full screen.

Kensanity: As I’m sitting here with my head rested on my hands typing this, you do not know how badly i also want to be back home. Today is my friends wedding and in the next three days i will return, so don’t worry its almost time. If you feel like the info here is a little amateur then i would love to see a new thread from you. Until i started posting here there were almost no new threads for several weeks, so maybe i am going over old information but i still think there are some new ways of implementing them in my posts. Also i only take shots at those who blatantly post just to add to their posting numbers without even considering or reading what i have written. It is quite obvious who those people are and it is not beyond me to call them out for it.

14

Loling

15

Day1God:

In all fairness, despite you repeatedly attacking Mr. X for not reading your post correctly, you’ve missed the point of his distinction between his chip strategy and your keepaway strategy.

Your keep away’s goal is to keep the opponent as far away as possible, whereas it seems to me that Mr. X’s goal is to panic the opponent and force them to come to him in an unsafe way. The tactics are similar, but the mindset is different. In that regard, I think you’re being a bit hypocritical.

Oh and I appreciate the kind words, and so you don’t think I skim through your posts - I didn’t miss the part about not using missiles when opponent can hyper. I was simply including all common punishes in one post for the sake of completeness.

16

[media=youtube]RG3MbQbAGPc[/media]

Clockw0rk @ 7:12 demonstrating how a defensive approach is effective on characters like She Hulk especially when she’s backed with Tron assist.

17

i wish i could watch that video korr. 2 more days until i return. its like being in anti-gaming prison over here.
liquid: you are equally a fool as mr.X if you believe that a chip team isn’t a strategy within keep away. another reading comprehension failure. try and understand that keep away is a very broad concept with many different sub-strategies within it. In a strategy you have a main course of actions which you follow to best of your ability but that doesn’t mean you never deviate and alter it.

im done trying to teach you kids how to read and understand. i will continue to make posts and simply only help those who are smart enough to receive help.

18

Now you’re insulting people that actually read your posts? I think everything you said is very true; strategies do have a main course of action. I will also maintain that Mr. X’s strategy is a type of keepaway. What I’m saying though is that your posts do not ever cover the strategy Mr. X is talking about, so you’re wrong to insult him.

Below is an example of a tactic I use with Hulk. I’m making the point with him because keepaway with him does not work under your definition, but it works under Mr. X’s chip strategy.

Against some characters, I will use Gamma Wave H repeatedly while calling Doom assist. Each Gamma Wave does very little damage, but the opponent is often forced to super jump to get past all of my projectiles. When they do, I’ll usually super jump and either air throw or j.:s: (usually reserved for characters who have reasons to press buttons while they’re that high in the air).

You don’t need to continue explaining because I already understand. Please read the below quote from the opening post.

This definition clearly does not encompass what Mr. X was saying. His strategy does NOT keep as much distance or even keep a “safe” distance. I’m pretty sure our reading comprehension would be out of whack if we actually read what you’re suggesting into it. Maybe you meant to leave your definition open enough to include substrategies like this, but you didn’t and that’s the point.

19

hey liquid, you run Hulk/Doom/Dante in that order? i just picked up Dante but i only picked him up to help exploit haggar lariat with Doom luls. anyway, was wondering if u have xbl or where i can see your videos. u have smart logical strategies and i just want to see your gameplay

20

Well, I run Dante second and Doom third, but I usually DHC / tag into Doom when Hulk needs a break so that Dante is last most of the time.

Unfortunately, there are only two videos of me out there and I’m not sure where they are. My game has leveled up considerably since then as well. I’ll look into finding a way to tape some of my casuals in the near future, but I can’t make any promises because I don’t have any equipment.

Sorry, but I play on PS3. I own a 360 as well, so if I decide there’s gold enough reason to buy the game and a Live account, I’ll let you know. It’s not completely out of the realm of possibility because my best friend recently bought a 360.