Dual modding a Razer Onza

Anyone tried this or heard of someone else doing it? Id love to use one of these on my PS3, I hate the Dual Shock 3 for any third or first person shooter.

It could probably be done, though it’d be tight. A conversion mod might be a little more feasible, but still tricky. I’d have to see (and probe) the inside of one to be sure (need to check for common ground PCB and voltage ranges on the triggers/sticks).

It could almost certainly be done. Economically feasibly? Maybe not.

Heresy. You can be suggesting the awful asymmetrical Xbox style analog layout is better that the Dual-shock layout?



Oh wait you serious?
I do know of some 3rd party alternatives

Nyko’s Raven (alternate layout)
DreamGear’s Shadow 6
Mad Catz’s Major League Gaming Game Pad
Rocketfish Rapid Fire Wireless controller

Out off all of them the only controller I do not think is complete trash is Mad Catz’s MLG Game Pad, which is not due out till later this year
My advice suck it up and use the Dualshock 3

Only problem with dual modding one is that there is so little space to fit anything in there. And about the only one that can fit would probably be the TE PCB, but that’s no good if you want the analog sticks, plus, I have no idea if it’s common ground or not. Maybe you could transplant an existing 360 controller PCB with analog sticks into a shell of one, which is still quite a project.

It sounds like he’s talking a 360 -> PS3 conversion. Which should actually be possible with a custom microcontroller firmware (on an AVR with ADC’s), I’m fairly certain (I’m not 100% familiar with the limitations of a HID-class controller on PS3 instead of a Sixaxis/DS3 over Bluetooth; anyone more knowledgeable than me want to chime in?) That’s kinda what I was alluding to with the economically feasible part of my above post – I don’t know of anyone who’s developed that code, so it adds another layer to engineer. Could be wrong, though; haven’t done any research, I’m just spitballing.

If you checked the Info Thread, you would have found this.

It is possible, I never said it wasn’t. I know a handful of modders who would do conversions as well as dual-mods in a game pad.
Gummowned as done it a few times, and I seen Ben Heck Squeeze a Actual Six Axis into a Xbox 360 controller’s Shell. Ether modders work does not comes cheap and the latter costing hundreds of dollars for his work. A less stylish option is to gut a game pad and go the project box method.

To be realistic It is far more feasible, more cost effective and less difficult to buy a pre-existing Game pad with the OP requirements than trying to mod a Xbox 360 to PS3.

To D3v:
I though that was only PS2/ PS3 to Xbox 360 adapter. OP talking about using a Xbox 360 Style controller on the PS3. Sounds crazy to me.

Re-read the thread. It converts 360 to PS3 as well.

There’s even video.

Other than Arcade Sticks, I am still wondering in Gods name why would anyone use a Xbox 360 Controller on a PS3.

To D3v: I didn’t saw at first the adapter works both ways, that is new to me as I normally do not expect adapters to be so multi-utility.

too bad the dual strike smd is out of production it would be perfect for this situation (If its common ground) I have the TE model of the controller (adjustable tension analog) its super nice the buttons light up it has mini Omron micro switch like the PDP fight pad. It also has I dont use a anlogs for fighters but for people who use analogs this pad would be king with the adjustable analog tension is awesome its the only controller I use for reg games

I seriously love this pad to death. Especially for gears 3. Mfbs save me so much hassle when it comes to that game. The absolve are good but the tension can cause some slow turn issues. As for the converter, I am not sure how it goes for emulating analogs. I hope it does well. An issue I see though is the treatment of the positioning. I.e. analog 360 may he ps3 dpad.

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I was thinking about the Dual-Strike SMD as an implant; it’d be your best bet, but which chip was it based off of? A lot of AVR’s don’t actually have ADC’s in them, which is no problem for fightsticks, but if you need actual analog inputs makes it a PITA to use them (also increasing the cost of production). I always assumed that the DS SMD didn’t have analogue input potential in hardware, just to shave off unnecessary features from the chip used. There’s a great possibility I’m wrong on that, though.

If the Onza is CG, and has enough space, something with a DS-SMD (or similar, if that doesn’t have analogue in) could be used; in fact, it’d be your best bet at fitting something into the controller. A one-off development of that kind of PCB, while it wouldn’t be crazy hard (since muchof the work has been done by the Dual-Strike design already), would probably be a little expensive to get someone to do. It’d be a fun project, though, if you’re comfortable with SMD PCB design/manufacture. :3

Yeah I think your right the SMD DS was not designed for analog use but I’m not 100% sure you would have to ask gummo since he designed it also your going to have to find one last time I checked it was out of production

Dual-Strike SMD lacks analog controls as it was originally intended for arcade sticks but later adapted to include fight pads

What you are asking is a development of a new board, something unless there is a growing demand for isn’t feasible to produce a version of the Dual-strike that supports analog. We also talking about one hella expensive PCB to develop, as this board is a one of a kind. Gummowned for the Dual Stike SMD and Toodles for the Cthulhu family keep there cost down buy buying components in bulk. Suppliers give major discounts when you buy in large numbers. The difficulty is not the firmware but producing a board with the added pin out for both analogs in addition to the d-pad and 13 other buttons.

And this is all assuming that
[]The Onza has the physical space to house a Dual-Strike SMD board
]that the Onza is Common Ground
[]That if not common ground that diode hacking each and every input would work and physically the room for the diode hack.
]That your able to physically diode hack the Onza PCB and have the stock buttons still respond.
My recommendations:
Unless you really have the funds to do so, the mod in question is not feasible nether from a financial or technical standpoint. Just suck it up with the PS3 Dual-Shock 3, seriously.
As Adapters are notorious for missed or drop inputs as well as lag although the HDE converter comes close for the utility use for the cost. And most 3rd party controllers for the PS3 that have the Xbox 360 layout all suck. Otherwise you need to mod a six axis board into a Xbox 360 layout

Actual examples below. No I can’t not take any credit for this “work”

Just give up on the Razer Onza for PS3 use.

It’s a relatively simple PCB, and Gummo put the designs up (or at least pictures of them). It’d need some refactoring for the analogue elements; does anyone know of a picture of the PCB where the AVR’s part number is visible?

But yeah, the design itself is a fairly straightforward. Slightly tight tolerances, but I could probably still etch it at home. If I was designing it for a specific target controller, I could even lay it out on a larger (but more strategically shaped) PCB, which would bring all of the signals closer to where they need to be for the dual-mod. Just takes the right tools. :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: As Darksakul points out, it’s pretty much infeasible. I’m just talking as though it were a “Challenge Accepted!” kind of situation – if I, for some reason, wanted to develop one for myself. This is impractical for most people, and his comments on the limitations are spot-on. The cost of such a one-off board, in parts, isn’t that high (though it’s definitely higher than the unit cost of a high-quanitity production board like the the Cthulhu and Dual Strike), but the R&D cost is pretty enormous. Everything that I’m saying is talking technical feasibility for a hacker who wanted one for himself – not for ideas of how to make something like this production.

If I had to pick a controller for this kind of mod I would go with a Mad Catz Xbox 360 4716 game pad or another Mad Catz common ground variant, as many of there controllers have the reputation for being common ground which adds less clutter to the mod, and increasing your chances of success.

Odds also are you have to sacrifice one if not both rumble motors to make room for the mod components.

Maybe the Teensy USB development Board would work. As it is a open source open format PCB, and audrino clone so audrino code might work. For the PS3/PC support you have to program the Teensy as a Driver-less UHID gaming device. You will have to code it your self or have someone willing to code it for you.
This does not cover system selection so a version 1 imp board (or a similar controller board) would be required as well.

Shit, that how you would do it. A proven Common ground PCB game pad, a Teensy programed for driver-less UHID gaming device and v1 imp. Now who knows C?

Teensy Website and Store

Yes the Teensy is common ground. Something that could fit in a thumb drive has to be to save space.

That’s true, though note: Teensy’s not entirely open, unless they changed something in the last year or so. You could certainly do the development, but the bootloader itself is closed source. For a one-off, it’d be fine; the closedness only matters when going into production w/ a board (which is why I avoid it).

You could easily make this happen with a Teensy and LUFAand the right skillset (programming ability). I’ve actually experimented with HID game controllers on the AT90USBKey (an Atmel board very similar, but a little more featureful, than the Teensy) before, though never for PS3. That’s why I was leaning towards a software-USB solution that was already partially solved (the Dual-Strike). The Teensy’s smaller size would make it the best option for a one-off project like this, though; hadn’t even really thought of it.

Dual Strike lacks Analog support and it is out of production for the time being with no word of it coming back.
Teensy be more feasible for a one time project like this due to its size and number of provided pin outs, 28 if you do not count ground.

Yeah, I agree; better option for a one-time thing, 100%. I wasn’t thinking about the existence of the Teensy (thing is damn small, I’ve only ever worked with the twice-as-large Teensy++ so it’s easy to forget it exists). I was looking at it more from a ground-up board design approach, making a custom board based off a processor that could run mostly the same code as the Dual-Strike, but had analogue I/O and the code was modified to transmit data from the ADC’s for the triggers + sticks.

The Teensy’s definitely the better option, you’re just not working off a known-good-with-the-PS3 firmware. Does the PS3 require anything special about how you communicate with it, HID-ID-wise? Or do you just need to know what to number the inputs? Honestly, developing the firmware on a hardware USB solution with LUFA is crazy simple, so if there’s no tricks to making it work with the PS3 you’d probably get it going faster than trying to convert Dual-Strike for analogue inputs. Software USB libraries are so finnicky! XD

As for programing I am clue-less on. From the driver perspective many PC only HID game devices work on the PS3 as there are still generic hid class items.
If you can replicate a existing HID class items ID you have better chances of the device working on the PS3. Toodles as a redundancy measure, have the Cthulhu and chimp emulate a Hori board when a certain button combination is pressed while the board is being plugged in.