Tien feels super slept on, I love it! Now I can’t have a team without him. It’s crazy that I don’t see more of him online with his:
Solid ranged normals/projectile
Armoured slide
Crouching lows
GOOD Damage, even without self damage
Command overhead
Command grabs
Can be played any position
I get that it’s pretty much ‘the saiyan show’ online but people are really missing out!
Yeah, basically everybody who’s not Cell, 16, AHan, Black or Vegeta is being slept on right now. imo Tien is easily one of the best under those, and he’s good in both point position (starting with no meter but having assists to back him) or anchor (having no assists but presumably having the meter)
I’m not worried about the safety of the side switch. That’s what conditioning is for, longer blockstun also means just call the assist earlier or do the rekka later. The thing that scares me about using Yamcha is his neutral in general and his lack of damage off of his crossup rekkas.
21, Tien, Frieza, and Trunks are all going to start popping up way more as the game goes along.
Less about meter more about being able to do stupid amounts of damage solo.
Sonicfox is tweeting out that he’s going to be revisiting beerus as well. Most characters in this game have potential, but discovering it is hard because lots of the potential is trapped behind finding counters to the first order optimal strategy, and we are only really starting to see that strategy take place. As an example, A Gohan has troubles against short characters, so using kids against him is a good strategy.
I kinda like the idea of Beerus as a point against any Vegeta team. Anyone that can be mobile and attack at a similar angle to the Vegeta assist can effectively avoid him. Combined with the side kick he could probably do some solid counter strategy to Vegeta.
I also want to see throwing out light orbs and sitting on his DP to counter errant dash in attempts. That DP is not very well explored
Now I’m wondering how effective Beerus orbs would be as a defense against Vegeta’s assist.
Anyone seen anything like that?
It would lack the priority and be eaten up by the volley
I was thinking more about stopping him from even coming out
Cross up ex wff nets pretty good damage actually.
For his neutral, learn to use his 5s and 2s in conjunction with assists. My neutral became so much better when I learned how good his grounded S’ are. Very fast start up and really good recovery
Also his grounded 214 specials are air invincible on frame 1
Ahh, ok. Was wondering what was going on with his 214 specials, I knew they had some invincibility but I figured it was later in the startup or something. Ok so now I know. Yeah his S normals are something I didn’t know about when I first tried him out. Seems like if he does S and the opponent does homing dash through it, Yamcha can recover and 214 DP them out of it? Seems like it might be a legit strategy. I’m liking all of this newer anti homing dash stuff coming out. He still seems like he would a basic problem with beam based neutral though, but I guess that’s the thing you have to deal with to get the good offense. There is only 1 beam based character that is really a problem anyways and that’s cell. Most other characters don’t have a good enough all around neutral to really make the beam that huge of an issue, I have also had problems with people that constantly upback from midscreen as well, but we’ll see how it goes.
His S’ put him in the air so he won’t have the invicibilty from the 214. However, using a beam assist along with them can help you keep you safe and punish. Using them solo is moslty safe too because you will almost always have time to block, so they are good for conditioning.
Also if you saw my video earlier I showed that you can punish beams on block from full screen
Edit: be careful using his j.s, has more recovery than the ground versions
Hmmm. Yeah I’m liking him in training mode right now, at atleast. The variants he has on WFF are mind blowing without even getting into his 2S pressure.
People who know the MU will just wait for the side switch and start mashing though. They don’t even need to change blocking direction because crossup protection works for his rekka as well.
However, throw a Trunks assist there and crossup becomes both legit and a frame trap.
If they are waiting for the side switch that means they “should” be open to other things, like throws. “Should” being the apt word here. I’ve played against Yamcha online though and his rekka isn’t protected with crossup protection… he crosses you up and you are blocking the wrong direction… you get hit. The crossup protection works for assis though, but that’s really really old news… you do know how crossup protection works right? It has to do with the move itself not the move that started the crossup. So some moves in the game have a flag that they can be blocked in either direction… Yamcha rekka doesn’t have that. Assists have that. Ginyus summons DONT have that. Getting snapped in makes all moves have that till you land ( I think that’s how it works) etc etc
Since we’re on the subject of teams, help a brother out. I can’t decide on Gotenks/Blue Goku/Vegeta SSJ or Gotenks/A. Gohan/Goku. Which one do you guys feel is stronger in the long term.
Team 1:
Gotenks assist can be used to extend all 2H from goku with the teleport.
Top notch blockstun for teleport mixup on strings, even if it’s not as polluted as ki blasts.
Goku hard knockdown assist fills a major gap in gotenks gameplan since he has no way to get it outside of smashes. This lets you set up ghost oki off low height hits (ie.: vanish, donut, 5H). I’m nowhere near using ghost oki, but still.
Vegeta assist is vegeta assist.
Goku Blue is a fucking baller with a sick ass ki blast.
Cons:
Poor DHC sinergy outside of vegeta getting two supers off ghosts.
Vegeta out has the two possibly worst assists in the game for neutral.
Gotenks and Goku blue are shittier mixup characters compared to Cell/K Buu/Gohan/etc so I’m just playing a straight worse team
Team 2:
Gotenks pressure upclose isn’t all that amazing since you can react to fake beam shenanigans and he doesn’t have the double/triple overhead stuff Kid Buu, Gohan, Cell, Piccolo have. So having a more zoning oriented team with triple beams (two of which are AIR OK) is OD. With Gohan, masenko into assist into masenko vanish is 4k+ damage on any stray hit. Or beam into gotenks is a blockstring with frame advantage
This team has Gohan.
I like the team thematically and I have better matching colors lol.
I can get a lot of dramatic finishes with Goku.
DHC sinergy through the roof. Gohan can combo off ghosts.
Gotenks assist lets me combo into 214H Gohan (true hard knockdown). This needs further testing as I’m not 100% on the combos yet and it seems very limited on smaller chars.
Damage is much higher than the other team.
Cons:
Goku anchor is vastly outclassed by vegeta
Not sure how to use Gohan assist for combos
No hard knockdown for gotenks on most hits
This team is gonna expose me for just doing Vegeta assist defensively and getting away with it
That’s not really how dealing with assists works. The best you can do is use movement to avoid them or try to make a read and hit the opponent before they start. This game works like Marvel 2 where the point character being hit will stop the assist from coming out. Although in the case of Vegeta, Vegeta has likely already thrown out a couple ki balls by that point which has either hit you or put you in block stun any way.
I explained this a while earlier, but the problem with trying to use a point option to deal with the assist is that trying to use point tools to deal with an assist character leaves you open to the point character. It’s very difficult to find an attack/hit box based option that deals with an assist without putting yourself in danger. Like in Marvel 3 people will try to preemptively shoot beams on the ground to snipe Doom missiles before he comes out, but that leaves you in the lava on the ground and opens you up to the point character.
Most of Beerus’ fireballs without knockdown oki get blown up by super dash. Which means you then have to worry about 2 stupid things to deal with one of them. Even if theoretically they were good vs Vegeta, you would be wasting time with something that opens you up to the point character to deal with it.
The only thing ive seen be somewhat effective vs Vegeta assist (or any assist in general) that’s an attack is Goku Black’s horizontal fireball dive. It goes at an angle that’s pretty good for shooting assists off screen and hits at a good angle for Vegeta. It’s just if the player is smart they can just bait this and Goku Black doesn’t really have the offense to make it not worth being patient against. Theoretically if Sonicfox could do that and add a beam assist to it he would have a pretty good spread for dealing with obvious Vegeta calls.
_
_
_
_
_
In the end your best real defense vs a top tier assist is movement. Movement gives you time to hit the point character to stop the assist from activating and movement also allows you to avoid the the spacing that the assist hits at. Movement is the least committal thing you can do in a fighting game and that’s probably one of the only things that makes sense to take on a set of adjacent hit boxes that require zero commitment to throw out (and make the things the point character does less committal as well) .
Sonicfox admittedly has pretty solid defense vs Vegeta assist just with his basic movement. It’s how he beat Chris G pretty easily at Winter Brawl. He basically does his best to constantly stay in the air as the horizontal hit box for Vegeta assist doesn’t travel as far from the air as it does from the ground. Meaning good movement can space you towards the end of the assist where the least relevant part of the assist might touch you. Even when Sonicfox was cornered vs GO1 he would sometimes take the risk and jump any way just because he knows if Vegeta gets called and he’s in the air, it’s less likely it’ll lock him down.
The problem with GO1 is that unlike Chris G, he uses a top tier team where it’s hard to be in the spots where Vegeta isn’t relevant. Adult Gohan and Cell both have a lot of really strong hit boxes and forward moving specials that always get them into range of calling Vegeta assist safely pretty easily. Which means much easier for them to put you into scrambles where you run your face into Vegeta assist trying to deal with their point shenanigans.
Crossup protection means you can block both ways if the move started while you’re in the air. Nothing to do with the move itself. Yamcha has followups with frame traps in them, so you can catch jump startup.
Gotenks has ridiculous pressure up close. If we are talking specifically about the beam cancel you have 4 options off of it if it’s covered by an assist. You can do an immediate over head, you can air dash overhead, you can go low right away or even after the the airdash, or you could even beam cancel into Dragon rush.
Your first team doesn’t really seem like a well built team. Maybe if you put blue first it would make more sense.
Your second team is close to mine. I run gotenks yamcha goku right now