Don't be a Skank!

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
1

Hi

Today I would like to talk about honour in fighting games.

I dont really want to cause an argument over this, but Im quite tired of seeing people thinking they are good for exploiting holes in a 15 year old game and somehow palming them off like its some deep seated transferable, testament of skill that actually goes beyond the version of the game the hack works on or the matchup it favours.

Recently I came back to super turbo because I discovered GGPO and could relive the 90s arcade moments I enjoyed before a real life and job.

I can only really play DJ because I am confined to pad (Because of noise when i play at night) and dont want to get into the game in a big way as it was like crack to me before, but as someone who was doing Guiles Standing Fierce Punch into flash kick in 92 and played serious street fighter up to alpha 2 and played mortal kombat, killer instictcs at a high level, its safe to say I can actually play most characters and have an expert understanding.
Sadly there seem to be a few scrubs on GGPO who do not seem to understand the difference between winning honourably and just playing to be Skank.

I would therefore like to state that if you are one of those people who use characters like Vega/Claw, and rely on his cross up Iznua drop win, I dont care if I lose, neither do I believe I got beat.

If you can win honourably then good for you, but winning games does not always mean youre better. If Capcom had known half the hacks that determine the outcomes in modern high end super turbo play its safe to say they would adjusted the game for that.

As it stands you have a game which is still IMO the best fighter ever made, but does have serious holes in it. For examples, Vega cross up, if its so easy to escape then why was Justin Wong raped by it in 2008? [media=youtube]P-PmNGOjGTw&feature=related[/media].

I cant tell you how many scrubs have lectured me on GGPO about never improving and their only basis for this was them beating my DJ and only then using a single move.
Surprisingly these same players get beat very badly the second they do not use such an exploit.

Its the same with Thawk, hes regarded as a crap player, but we all know that jumping punch into Spinning Pile Driver can be almost inescapable at certain times against certain opponents (yes I have seen pro’s perfected), so for any new school players who do not understand the true ethics of what it means to be good at a game, I hope my points have gone some way into making you understand that just because you can win a match that favours you purely based around a single move or a certain matchup it does not make you a good player any more than it makes you tough guy for beating up old women.

Sometimes you can win a game and still be the loser and sometimes you can lose and game and still be a winner.

Dont be a Skank because youll never prosper relying on such one dimensional tactics.

2

Learn to beat those tactics that you consider dishonorable, and then not only will your opponent not be able to rely on them, but you won’t be limiting yourself with nonsense excuses about how you’re a winner and they’re all losers, because they beat you.

If they beat you, then they played better that match. It doesn’t matter if they did one move over and over–if you failed to stop it, then you let them get away with it, and they outplayed you because of your lack of ability.

3

Idiot #1 replied.

You failed to understand my point, if a game is designed and something becomes apparent in it which screws up the balance then there are times where the level of skill required to counter it vs the ease of use to exploit it make it a BUG. Not something you can consistetly and skillfully encounter. Arcade roms don’t have the luxury of being patched or updated anymore. And I guess it was a co-incidecne his knock down was removed in HD REMIX?
Further prrof that I’m talking sense. And probably why people like Akuma are banned in Tourneys?
I suppose you wouldhave given him a DBL fireball too had anyone been stupid enough to give you a job in design.

Again, go watch the video I posted, I suppose justin wong is a noob for failing for that iznua drop time after time?
And again here.
[media=youtube]P-PmNGOjGTw[/media]

Sadly its idiots like you whom I’m talking about, you fail to understand the difference between an exploit and a realistically avoidable tactic.

I have seen many pros crippeld by this, I suppose they need to get better too?

Still, its cheap shots like this which probably keep people like yourself in the game.

The people you are talking about get owned the second they stop relying on this simple tactic, that is not skill doing the winning, its an exploit. Learn to notice the difference and then come back when you get it.

lack of ability, that would sound a lot more convincing if they did not lose every single game they played when they did not use the exploit. That’s basically why I know you’re an idiot because I know when I have been outplayed. There is a difference.

4

Even in theory your “honour system” doesn’t work, because where do you draw the line? Is spamming booms honorable but tigers not? If I ONLY use HHS and cr. fierce with Honda to win, is that honourable? How many times can I use the “Skanky” move before my honour goes down the pipe?

If you can’t accept the loss then don’t play the game. Going around thinking you are the best and the guy beating you (with just a single move) is a loser is nothing but fail. Of course you are free to believe in whatever as long as it makes you happy, but writing your lame excuses here on SRK is both provoking and stupid.

5

I can already tell by your list of characters you’re one of those players who needs to defend a style of play that’s relies a cheese style of play.

You’re being ridicilous in your comparisons, I’m talking about a move which is very simple to do and has devastating effects no matter what the skill of the opponent is. Please show me a comprably simple move in the game of SUPER TURBO which can screw up someone like Justin Wong, by doing nothing more than a flash kick and a simple move on the joystick? You won’t that’s why your coutner argument is shite.

Spamming sonic booms or whatever requires good timing and prediction because if you make yourself predictable you will get countered. That’s why I’m not talkingabout such issues.

nothing but fail? I worked on the killer instinct game based on my gaming skills and I win about 99.9% of the games I play on GGPO (and have taken some gamesoff pro’s)and that’s with a crappy pad that fails half the time. I have no problems with losing buddy.

If you can make a suitable counter point other than just being a typical gamer who thinks I am doing this because I can’t hack it then you’re welcome and would gladly stuff you both in any version upto alpha 2.

My point is not through lack of skill, its a genuine gameplay point, grow up.
I stopped caring about smoking fools like you 10 years ago.

6

  1. Save the childish insults for someone who is interested in an internet pissing contest. I’m not sure how you think you’re supporting your point by calling me an “idiot,” but it does nothing for you, and as for the silly accusation that I’m probably one of the people who needs those tactics to win? I primarily play Dee Jay and Cammy. Not a wealth of dominating tactics there, and I still manage to hold my own against the Vegas, Balrogs, and O. Sagats I play against.

  2. There are some tactics that, in practice, are probably more effective than they were intended to be. That does not make them “bugs.” Bugs are when the actual use or behavior of a function in the game does not work as intended. There are certainly some bugs in ST: Things like stored supers and throws are probably bugs. Lack of strategic foresight is not a bug.

  3. If these “exploits” had such an adverse affect on the game, people would not still be playing it at the tournament level this long after it released. They are all very beatable. Every character has situations where they have an advantage over their opponents. Some definitely are stronger than others, but them’s the breaks. The strategy of the game includes not falling into those situations where your opponent has a steep advantage, and guiding your opponent into situations where you do.

So no, Justin Wong was not a noob for falling for the Wall Dives time after time, he was simply outplayed. His opponent put him in a position where he was more vulnerable, and Justin failed to get out of it. It happens to the best, often when they’re playing against opponents of equal caliber.

So again, learn to beat those tactics that you call dishonorable, or keep right on losing. If you opt for the latter though, don’t blame the players for using it. They’re simply exploiting the weakness that you’re unwilling to put the effort in to fix.

7

I’ll apologise for calling you an idiot IF you can please tell me how a veteran like Justin Wong can be crossed up time after time and you do not consider it a bug?
calling you an idiot seems about fair for mocking my lack of ability when I was simply addressing a genuine gameplay concern. That is why you’re an idiot.

“They’re simply exploiting the weakness that you’re unwilling to put the effort in to fix”

So let me get this straight, a well known professional player with quite literally nearly 20 years of play expereince cannot get past this minor point I am referring to, yet you are actually saying that players like myself and him have not put sufficient effort into counterting this?

Could it be that you are in fact an idiot and unable to acknowledge the difference between an exploit and unable to make the distinction between fair and unfair?

I’m still waiting for you to explain that one. Ace.
And no your point did not explain it. it was just a weak attempt at justifying something that was apparently not a problem despite it being fixed in remix and crippiling some of the best players in the world by doing nothign more than a flash kick with some directional movement.

8

I’ve played your scrubby DeeJay on GGPO several times, and after I’ve beaten you 10 straight you usually call it a set. Feel free to challenge me whenever; I’m sure you’ll have some lame excuses for your losses tho, even if you are losing to Sim that hasn’t got any game enginge “bugs” like Claw or Hawk (hahaha!). Just explain how Choi got passed Tokido then, and how random characters (seldom Claw, never Hawk) seems to win every major tournament in Japan?

Just go home and be a family man will you? Grown up working man sitting around moaning on SRK over his losses…

9

I’m on GGPO now, I have never played you under that alias.
Feel free to pop on, I would love to see this straight 10 nill given no one, including pros have taken 10 straight games from me. And here you are struggling to get dhalsims super out?
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=5025186#post5025186

Don’t make me laugh you scrub.

So I’m supposed to belive that some random dork I have never heard of has done it?

Secondly, this is not even the point, I’m talking about vega.
And Sim is widely regarded as one of the top tier characters in the game, even if you beat my mid tier DJ through making me bored with yoga fires and shit kicks and slide throws of which are overly difficult to counter with DJ, it would not be the end of the world, but I would like to see you try as I thin kyou’re talking shit.

I’ll be happy to see how your Sim does vs my claw.

And by the way, I was playing guile in 92, you’re 21 now?
Congrats, you would have just got out of diapers at that point.

10

hey jamerio,

what’s with the attitude dude? =(

i’ve played you a few times on ggpo, and i’ve seen you use vega a fair bit yourself. as for justin wong, ST is way way down the list of games that he plays. some skills from playing one fighter can translate to another, but i don’t imagine ST is a game justin has really put much time into (but i could be wrong). it is indeed an annoying move, but you see tokido escape it (i’m sure same method most people use: triple kick/punch). mind you claw mirror match is just about as dry as it gets… ;D

i mean i love ST as much as anyone. got the jp green cps2 board on my supergun, CCC2, SSFIIX on dreamcast, both INH dvds, yoga book, and about a dozen FAQS on my favourites tab. but the more i play ST the more of a dirty skanky game i think it is. i still love it, and i still think it’s the best fighter out there, even now. but it’s just full of ambiguous cross-ups, throw loops, tick setups, you name it. yes, every trap or setup can in theory be escaped from, but some are very very difficult. you can see why capcom put in alpha counters and the parry system in the later games

and claw vs deejay is just very much a matchup in claw’s favour. i think i beat you a couple of times with claw, although that was mainly fake walldives and then walking up for the cr.Roundhouse ;D other matchups for claw are much harder.

but it’s only ggpo. i play casually for a bit of fun, there’s no prizes or honour involved, i don’t think. if someone plays pure cheese, just don’t play them in the future.

i guess what i’m saying is don’t take it so serious, maybe learn one or two more characters to a decent level, and ditch that pad dude and get yourself a good arcade stick =)

jpj

11

Saying you lack ability is not an insult, it’s simply a restatement of what you’ve already pointed out. You are unable to beat these tactics–that is a lack of ability. It’s one that is very possible to correct, as well.

Again, Wong was just outplayed. He tried to keep Tokido from getting into that position of dominance and failed, and in the mirror match he was trying to establish the same dominance. If Vega’s walldive is so impossible to avoid, why is it that Vega doesn’t win every tournament? The reason, obviously, is because the tactic is beatable, usually by not letting yourself be put into that situation.

Now, I’ve said all I have to say on the matter. I’ve pointed out why your reasoning does not hold, and I’ve tried to instruct you toward better play. If you choose not to see it, and instead want to hide behind an excuse of the tactic being “cheap,” “unfair,” or “buggy” rather than taking the time to learn to counter it, that’s no skin off my back.

12

no attitude, I just came here to make a point today after getting a bit of abuse on GGPO from idiots similar to DON (I don’t recall that tool), having an over inflated opinion of themselves from using rather lame tactics.

My reaction is simply based on the lack of mutual understanding.
And more of a point for scrubs on the net to try and say I’m shit or whatever.
It starts to look stupid when you’ve taken games off some top players when i try.

Just here to say that winning is not always winning and I’m happy to say when I have beat which I have been plenty of times (and am not companining about those times as I felt it was skill not abuse) but seems sad there are so many kids around who automatically attribute any point to do with losing to trying to protect one’s ego or making excuses, I smoke most people I play, I don’t need to make excuses.

Funny then that no other tactic in the game bothers me.
I’m pretty sure Justin Wong is still in good shape and I still dont get why something which according to some of the clowns around here is easy to avoid is a problem for him.

I bet he could destroy most people playing ST. The game has not changed that much over the years so you don’t need constant play. And when I said vega I meant against his sim. I have played about an hours worth of vega in 15 years.

That’s whow stupid his cross up is, its so simple even what that degree of playtime you can win by using a basic move once you’ve got a knockdown on many players, many of which are quite good.

13

I’m not saying the tactic is unavoidable, what I am saying is that’s incredibly difficult to consistently counter and that players who rely on it to win should not take much of a victory from it.

Like I said, I have seen many pro’s get crossed up time after time, so your point is bullshit to me because if it were reasonably possible to counter once you have the loop going then it would not be problem for them.
Should some of the best players in the world get better too in agame that is already 15 years old?
Idiot.

Counter it? So basically don’t get a knock down? Yeah great suggestion cos that’s pretty much all you need and unlike gief who has to work hard to get in close its not so difficule for claw to obtain a knockdown.

Its not an excuse, its simply a gameplay concern and trust me buddy in the world of gaming I have nothing to feel insecure about compared to people like you.

its why people like you play them and some people make them.

I have nothign more to say to you either, except you’re pretty clueless and strike as a typical immature asshole on a game forum who thinks people are moaning when they are simply discussing a valid point.

14

I play claw in ST and i take every victory for what it is, a Victory. Good players can stop walldive in it’s tracks, if your so upset about wall dive, go play Blanka, problem solved!

In all seriousness, nobody cares about these tired arguements about honor-less play. ST is a game full of tight offense and requires excellence in execution, spacing, reactions, and all around play. In short, it’s a man’s game, and if you stop playing it because you want to complain about tactics that you haven’t learned to counter, then you won’t be missed.

ST can be very unforgiving and frustraiting if you can’t learn to stop a basic but strong tactic. Either accept this and deal with it, or play a game with more forgiving requirements.

15

So explain to me why Wong was unable to then and a handful of other players many of you consider pros?
Was he not good enough?

I have personally seen plenty of to players getting screwed over by this one move? (people you consider good)
Changing direction at the last second till it looks more like guess work than any real form of skill. More like a 50/50% chance.

And I used to play Super Turbo in London arcades in 1993 (yes DON when you were still in diapers) and got raped plenty of times by gigamsx, so spare the keep it real argument. I’m as real as they come or I would not be playing ST coin-op.

It just seems a shame some of you don’t seem to remember what it is like to play properly and not win on stupid hacks/skanks which would have been taken out of the game had the developers been away of them at the time of development.

Its only because the game is so old and people are still playing it that its been played out and sadly exploits are now considered a good thing to use and the game seems to revolve around it. I don’t see anything great or fun about playing people as someone who’s using a tactic which requires little or no skill to execute and has devastating impact on the outcome of the game regardless of the opponents skill. Online play does not help either in a game as tight as super turbo.

If you take victory from winning by shite things (winning throws you know you should not be winning) which will not work in any game but ST you’re kidding yourself if you actually think you’re progressing as a player.

You’re just a skank in my eyes. Anyway I’m done on the matter.
I guess there seems to be two schools of thought, those who do anything to win, and those who admire a solid and respectful way to play. (KEN and RYU mentality:P)

I would swap Muteki’s Guile for any cheesy skank winning forumla. When that guy plays its pure skill.
Watching some scrub use unbreakable traps or winning some shitty throw when he should be losing it is not cutting :slight_smile: Look forward to seeing HD remix battles at EVO.

Peace out :slight_smile:

16

Yeah pretty much.

If it’s in the game it’s going to be used regardless of what it is. Complete mastery of all aspects of the game, whether they were intended or not, is competitive gaming.

17

TLDR version: Top tier tactics are for chumps, the harder you work for the win the better you are.

For such a real old school player you sure have gone a lot of years keeping a really scrubby mentality, that’s too bad. Maybe you’ll figure it out one day.

Also enjoy remix while it lasts, everyone who plays ST seriously is realizing original ST is the better game and moving back to it. I can almost promise you there will be more ST events than HD events over the course of a given year in the near future.

Hope I catch you on GGPO, i’ll be waiting to ambiguously cross you up with claw for round after round :bgrin:

18

Seriously, right? This sort of criticism of ST is as old as the game itself, and yet the game has grown and evolved with these so-called overpowered tactics, and become the wonderful competitive game that it is. It sure isn’t for everybody, but if the game isn’t what you want it to be, don’t play it. Criticizing the folks who play the game the way it is, while establishing your own home-brew criteria for what is or isn’t cheap play makes much less sense than just finding a game that fits what you’re looking for.

19

Sounds like the original poster got seriously raped by Claw’s Dives lol. That’s nothing. You know what’s REALLY frustrating? Trying to escape Zangief/Hawk/Honda’s tick, command throws with a charge character like Chun Li, Guile or Dictator. Damn near impossible. But that’s what makes ST so fun. If you can actually escape/stop those kind of tactics like Claw’s Dives or tick, command throws, it feels SO good!!

20

Justin Wong, while an excellent ST shoto player, doesn’t play claw seriously and he doesn’t seem to understand how to counter the wall dive. It seems clear that you’re not aware either. If you were spectating the claw mirror matches between “Bill Nye” and me, that’s how wall dives are used in that match. Very effective weapons but prone to counters and not highly repeatable. Watch Tokido’s matches against Ken to see that he does fine just poking without wall dives. After all, he’s been playing SF2 since the early 90s as well.

If you reversal every time as Dee Jay, you’ll almost always avoid damage and deal damage to claw. If you can’t, you need to practice more and/or avoid getting knocked down. I main claw and whether I play ST or STHD, mostly the same results happen. It’s pretty clear that losing repeated ambiguous wall dives didn’t critically affect my playing ability. But naturally, I get fewer opportunities in STHD without a free knockdown.

You didn’t play me but in the future, rather than whining, I would suggest simply telling your opponent that you would rather not play like that and stop the match. It’s unfortunate that some people play to win and others play for fun but there’s no way to tell the difference on GGPO besides informing them. Calling people skanks and scrubs (pretty ironic really) is just childish, esp. considering this is just online play.

If you really want to see whether it’s your skill or the character’s abilities that make wall dives so effective against your Dee Jay, find afro legends and ask him to use Dee Jay against your claw. I’m guaranteeing that ambiguous wall dives won’t be of much use but it’s much easier when you can see for yourself how deep the rabbit hole goes.