Overpowered vs Broken is a fine line and ultimately is a matter of opinion. That is why I’ve been saying it in quotes when I remember too. I’ve already said in a couple of post why I believe she breaks game play.
As for your part about getting excited over a non-X factor comeback; When have you ever seen phoenix played without X factor level 3?
In response to the original question by the OP, I don’t know whether she breaks gameplay (although there have been some good responses that suggest that she does) I think an equally troubling issue is the mindset that has been instilled into many players making them think they must have a Phoenix team as a back up ‘just in case’. I think this is very bad and the results of this weekends CEO compelled me to make this video that touches on Phoenix needing some kind of fix. Not necessarily gameplay wise but to change the whole “chose this character and you will probably win” mindset.
Wasn’t sure where on SRK to link the video, but here seems to be the perfect place.
[media=youtube]0w87NPTmeB4[/media]
Great video! The thing I liked about it most was that the video’s main focus was on fun which is a concept which sometimes seems to get lost when discussing fighting games.
The only way I think this is going to get “fixed” is with a complete reworking of Xfactor. You would have much more of a chance of beating her if Xfactor simply didn’t exist, along with “fixing” some other topics that are being discussed with characters and Xfactor (I’m seeing the topic on Wolverine killing off 2 characters with lvl 1 xfactor coming up more and more).
Are there recovery frames after the transformation or can you immediately start blocking?
I believe you can block/teleport out immediately.
Edit: I’m trying to find the where I saw this on SRK. If anyone would like to confirm/deny this it would be appreciated.
imo she is balanced. then again i have only been playing the games two days.
im not very good,and iv only had the game for 2 days,so yes i do try and save up 5 bars so i can bust her out.
i must admit there have been times where doing foolish things with her has cost me matches.
so i think doing things like wasting a bar for a hyper combo just before you other char is dead and then she comes out.
you will have a hard time.
that is if you do rely on her.
It has 4 active frames, zero recovery, invincibility ends as soon as the active frames do.
I say we get rid of everything that’s hard to block so nobody has to level their game. Anything that’s really fast, get rid of it too. This way, nobody can be better than anybody else and the game can be so fun with all the incredible amounts of crouch blocking, chicken blocking, and runaway tactics.
Get rid of anybody 8 way dashes. It’s too hard to try to block people with a lot of offensive options. It’s not fun to try to block against it. Ever try to block Magneto’s stuff? Way too tough. This game is supposed to be about fun.
Everything that’s strong, get rid of it. That’s pretty much what I’m hearing.
Wolverine’s Beserker Slash,
Tron’s fire assist
Haggar’s assist
Doom’s missiles
Viper’s FA in combination with Amaterasu cold wave
Ammy’s air throw range.
Ammy’s air throw into hyper.
Magneto’s infinite air dashes in Flight and his fierce
Zero’s air H
Wesker’s command grab and ground dash speed
Dante being able to cancel practically everything into something else to either stay safe or keep his offense going.
And of course Phoenix. Why? Not because she breaks gameplay (because as this thread has slowly degenerated what everyone knew it would which is a gigantic bitch-fest about "WAAAH Phoenix is too strong and I can’t block and counter her like I can block Deadpool) because she so obviously doesn’t.
Did I miss anything? O yeah. I forgot X Factor Level 3 which is really the ONLY thing that “breaks gameplay” but there are too many whiners, non-thinkers, scrubs, and just flat-out lazy motherfuckers playing this game to just point to that and let it go and move on.
Does anybody actually care that Phoenix is actually balanced and has dramatic deficiencies? No? Anybody?
This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:
People think they know what fun is. Have you forgotten what you’re playing? It’s a fighting game. One person wins. One person loses. The fun is in winning and overcoming obstacles to win. Out-thinking the opponent to win and using your characters abilities to their utmost to win. If I’m playing basketball and I’ve got a mismatch in the paint, why should I should jump shot? For “fun”? There was a time when Shaquille O’neal was the baddest dude in the NBA. And yet, his team didn’t win every game they played and he wasn’t the perfect player either. You put him on the line. You get him into foul trouble. Getting Shaq into foul trouble=Snapbacking Phoenix. Coaches sat down and thought out strategies to contain the damage Shaq could deal.
But alas nobody wants to think anymore. So continue with your little charade of pretending Phoenix “hurts the game and that’s why she should be nerfed”. That’s fine. We all know what the real deal is (AKA “Phoenix hurts my feelings so that’s why she should be nerfed”.)
Fair enough.
Tokido was using his X factor pretty wisely. Didn’t use it right away although I don’t uderstand why it was interesting to watch.
I’m almost certain the guide is wrong on this. I’ve DEFINITELY got killed from teleporting into a super.
^ I was killed by teleporting into a super that hit behind. There IS a bit of recovery on the teleport.
Ok people, seriously the only real thing that really “breaks” gameplay is X-factor. Lvl 3 X factor with DPH I know is stupid sometimes but why is Jean the only character really getting hated on. What about Lvl 3 X factor Wesker, Sentinel, Wolverine, etc. This weekend was the first time really any Phoenix team won a major tournament, if you watch WNF Viscant and Clockwork don’t win every week they enter. Phoenix does has weaknesses and can be exploited. and for the people that are hating on Phoenix, have you ever played DPH without x factor? Its scary knowing that even when you are blocking you can still get chipped out easily. People need to realize the game is still relatively new there is still a lot that can be figured out about this game it just needs time. So instead of crying about nerf this and nerf that maybe spend some extra time in the lab with some setups.
Phoenix is a great character without x-factor and she is really fun to play, I picked her up day 1 because I have always liked Jean Grey/Phoenix. I wouldn’t be surprised if Capcom nerfed Phoenix down the line because of all the people complaining and not spending some time learning. But give this game a few more months and people will get around it. What if it was the other way around and Justin Wong beat Tokido with Phoenix, would everyone still be saying the same thing?
No idea especially considering XFC3 Wesker destroys teams getting similar mixups and you don’t need five bars, can provide a usable (non combo) assist and high health.
He asked about transformation not teleport.
@kissblade: You can react to his mix-ups. You can’t react to Xfactor level 3 Phoenix.
…And how is DPR’s frame data supposed to stop you from doing that? The moment she’s not invincible, she’s free to move, but if you’re trying to do something like teleport out of a Maximum Web Throw, you better be frame perfect. ON the ground most people x-factor out of the active frames.
As for the teleport, it’s the fastest starting, and longest recovering in the game. 10 frames start up, 20 recovery. Most other teleports are 30 total as well, but Dormammu’s is 17 start up 13 recovery. Wesker’s tekleport iirc has the most total frames at 11 start up 20 recovery.
So far your arguments are
-She has low life
-Stop being whiners and deal with it
The first one Is hardly even a deficit. She dies in 1 combo. Ok? So doesn’t quite a few of the cast. Doesn’t automatically make them balanced. And she DOESN’T die in 1 combo with 5 meters. It takes AT LEAST 2. Sometimes more depending on if you get hit with a tracking fireball.
The second one isn’t even worth arguing because it’s not an argument. You can say “this is a fighting game its supposed to be hard to win” but when your opponent can cross you up with things you can’t react to while also making the cross up safe it is hardly a fighting game and more of a hold your joystick in the correct direction or you lose.
So name another deficiency please?
Phoenix requires less resources to kill than any other character. 420k and 800k both go in one combo, but 420k requires 0 meter, 800k requires either 2 meter via a DHC trick, 3 meters for a level 3, or 1 meter and x-factor.
I’m going to keep saying it until it sinks in too - the best way to fight a Phoenix team is with short, damage efficient combos. Meter is awarded on the base damage a hit would deal, so extended combos give you’re opponent much, much more meter than short ones. Learn some short and solid 300-350k meterless combos that lead to mix ups, and use them. You can easily get through two characters like this and have Phoenix come in with 2.5 bars.
So yes, deal with it. The match up makes you think, and play differently. And even given how fucking retarded x-factor 3 Dark Phoenix is, that’s actually a good thing for the meta, because it’s almost entirely unique right now.
You have to add at least 1 meter on to that to snap her in because she isn’t going to be on point or be called in.
You say it like the opponents are sitting there letting them hit you. If it was that easy Phoenix wouldn’t be an issue. The way I see it this is bad for the meta game. It’s almost like Brawl’s meta game with Meta knight. Since metaknight is clearly better than the rest of the class a lot of people pick him. The other characters tournament viability is determined on how well they do against Meta Knight (one example that comes to mind is Luigi: Hes has good match-ups and a horrible one against Meta Knight and because Meta Knights are so common he is not really tournament viable.) This is what I foresee happening. More people are beginning to pick up Phoenix because they realize how good shit is. Characters who have no chance against Phoenix (Hulk, Thor,and a good portion of the cast) will never be used. Everyones meta game will revolve around ways to beat Phoenix and the game will get stale and this game will become a big joke like Brawl has become.
Even if Phoenix ends up on every team forever from now on, there’s enough viable Phoenix teams that we’d still see more variety than most games have viable characters. You’re also making the incorrect assumption that a game with few viable characters isn’t fun.
Wolverine + Phoenix legit breaks the game. I’ll say that. Phoenixerine in the front and Phoenix in the back.