Does Capcom do SNK better than SNK?

[bloodriot]

Originally Posted by bloodriot
KOF2002 is just SF3TS with low rez graphics, no parrying, more attacking gameplay not that you can’t turtle, more characters, 3 vs 3, some ugly animations altho some are nice and impressive in their own way but not quite SF3TS

LOL

Thats just like saying “Taco Bell is just like McDonalds only they dont have tacos and burritos and all the stuff taco bell has.”

You obviously didn’t read my post correctly or you read it quite selectively both games are mad hot I just wish SF3TS had more characters and 3 VS 3 but sadly that will probably never happen, but still a damn good game.

I don’t have any problems with CVS2 kyo he’s alright in my book (he does play differently), but just because he has good damaging combos and is a higher tier doesn’t make him better than 2k2 Kyo who has more moves to play around with although he isn’t as powerful, he just has to work harder to get the desired effect and I don’t mind it at all.

It’s like saying SF2 Ryu is better than SFA3 Ryu or even SF3TS Ryu, just because he has more damaging combos and he’s in a higher tier. Doesn’t make sense :wonder: (hypothetically speaking of course)

[beelzebubble]

SNK sites don’t foster a competitive environment at all. They don’t break down games as well as the Capcom community for their games.

not true. they do… just they are all in japanese and maybe some other languages. surely the fault lies not with the games but the nature of the U.S snk fanbase. for whatever reason it’s made up of story loving, cosplaying, etc etc fans.

intimidation might be a part of it too, you wanna post an opinion on here youd better be pretty sure about it and ready to make a thesis of your argument. now i do pretty well in the game centres and im not afraid to take anyone on when it comes to games i like but check my character strats thread in my sig… its obvious im not the best writer on the subject so in a lot of cases i dont bother trying to argue with the “experts”.

[Sabin]

not true. they do… just they are all in japanese and maybe some other languages. surely the fault lies not with the games but the nature of the U.S snk fanbase. for whatever reason it’s made up of story loving, cosplaying, etc etc fans.

intimidation might be a part of it too, you wanna post an opinion on here youd better be pretty sure about it and ready to make a thesis of your argument. now i do pretty well in the game centres and im not afraid to take anyone on when it comes to games i like but check my character strats thread in my sig… its obvious im not the best writer on the subject so in a lot of cases i dont bother trying to argue with the “experts”.

not sure if you read all my responses but i did acknowledge that alot of the snk experts are non-english speaking ppl for the most part early on in the thread. sadly enough because of that, it doesn’t help the snk community’s image as a whole since because they cant speak english, they cannot share information (but then again, videos speak better than words on a forum, so this is kind of remedied.)

not sure if you remember Mummy-B on SRK before he passed away, but he was half japanese - spoke japanese quite fluently, and traveled back to the far east quite often and he had a love for snk games - especially Samurai Shodown (but kof too.) he and the guys at fierceslash.com were actually making alot of headway torwards fixing the problem that the SNK scene has (no competitive environment, no place for reliable gameplay info,) since like you, Mummy-B was over in japan and he was bilingual, so he could post alot of useful gameplay info up. They also had a tourney forum there as well IIRC…it’s a shame he passed away, cause the effort pretty much died with him, if he hwas still around we probably wouldnt be having this argument today.

i also agree 100% with your statement about getting “crucified…” the elitism in the 2d FG community is not helping the scene grow at all, ppl get intimidated at posting and asking for help since alot of noobs get flamed. especially here since everyone thinks that they are a expert at said games. combined with the fact that there are alot of stupid posts on srk doesnt help much either.

edit since i didnt see your post from earlier cuz i was posting:

that you know your shit is not in doubt.

thing is i cant fathom how you can say “vice plays better in cvs2” arent you mixing up “is more powerful” or “has more options” with “plays better”?

surely how they play is completely up to taste and a purely subjective matter…?

if thats the case then arguing about which game they play better in is pointless isnt it?

i agree 100% that who a person thinks plays better is either game is subjective. snk players dont like footsies, obviously. however the whole point of this thread and posts was to open up some people’s minds, since alot of SNK players are as closed minded as hell. (not like capcom players arent guilty of this, i mean haven’t you tried to open up some ppl’s eyes to snk’s gems on this site, like the RB series - with somewhat limited success? :P) you are one of the few execptions to the rule tho, even though you got crucified for thinking svc was good about 1 1/2 years ago, lol haha

honestly i dont care which game ppl play but alot of ppl stick to myths and assumptions that simply dont hold water. i’ve gotta quote this for truth.

Probably because they can’t come up with a better argument outside of “CvS Kyo lost his cool factor and auto guard on his Aragami! He sucks!”

[beelzebubble]

yeah i remember mummy b. he is one of the many cool ppl ive met on this site. it was after chatting with him in a couple of ss threads on this site that i decided to head over to fierceslash, he impressed me that much.

check out some songohan, takumaji, lord wolfgang krauzer posts over in the gameplay section of ng.com, they know their shit.

anyone who spreads the rb love is cool in my books

[System_1]

I like both capcom and snk games the way they are, and I apologize for the last post I made here. I did’nt realize how capcom and snk fans would feel about that.

[Higher-Jin]

You’ve never played a vs game or a capcom game seriously in your life.

Subjective at best.  But sure, we'll say this to be true.  I did not realize I was trying to convert you to my opinions and views about these games.  Here I thought I was just posting my ideas.


If you got halfway decent you'd know fireballs are only good in sf2 and get progressively worse and worse.

Subjective again. But more valid than the last statement.

The versus series is actually still played and alot of people tend to like it

...and?  Wanna cookie for stating the obvious?


I personally think mvc1 is garbage and I hear xvssf is a throw into infinite fest but still
~~~~
*blink*  ..no really.  Wanna cookie?


None of the shit you say works
~~~
Uhm....but it does.  I mean..*points to his TV*.  It does.  


why don't you try playing with someone that's halfway decent in any of the games where you can do your poking and fireball tricks over and over and be predictable about it.

Halfway decent? Skilled? Subjective terms. Hypothetically, would you be marked as scrub if I cheesed my way to victory against you using these tactics? Maybe you’re not decent, so let’s say I used such tactics as I have been talking about against someone who was “Decent”…what then?

That shit takes skill to apply they can poke back, they can jump over a fireball.

It is not hard to set it up so taht to "avoid" the fireball moves you into a disadvantageous position.  Just sayin'...



With that all replied too...THAT is why I got my first strike?!  You MUST be kidding me.  Stating an opinion, not even as fact and I get a strike.  You lie.  You don't even know what you're talking about.  Or maybe you are responding to my "fanboy" criticism.  If so, then you want  to get off your tangent and actually respond to it.

no offense dude

but you have no idea what your talking about

you deserve those strikes, and if you actually think you can beat me with your so called “cheese” your dreaming.

stop being a condecending asshole and actually play fighting games once in a while and you’ll do fine on this board.

[NeoPenny]

I’m not gonna say SNK>Capcom or viceversa. But I think it all comes down to preferences. Because although CvS is a cool game with SNK IP’s they don’t necessarily feel SNK-ish, same with Chaos. They can’t be compared because in essence it’s like comparing Mario 64 to Sonic Advance, though both are platformers they don’t necessarily share equal amounts of gameplay to be similar enough.

I think both Capcom and SNK did an awesome job with each other’s IPs, however it all comes down to how much you enjoy each other independently from havin who’s IPs. Whether a game is fun then it’s an awesome game.

Which brings me to the fact that I like Chaos>CvS 1 and 2,because I’m more used to playing on SNK’s gameplay. The reason why I find chaos>CvS is because I’ve been having more fun with it an identifying more with that game than with the other 2. Maybe I’ll change my mind when I learn a bit more about the rules of the gameplay for CvS because I’ve had my share of fun with it.

[System_1]

From the title question: “Does Capcom do SNK better than SNK?” This is a pretty stupid ass question, since a) Capcom has only made 3 truly balanced games(Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Capcom Versus SNK 2, and Street Fighter Third Strike), b) has yet to make a new game since CVS2, and has a completely different take on characters and abilities than SNK. Stupid question if you think about it.

Does Capcom give SNK characters an interesting new approach that should at least be recognized as something other than butchery? Yes. Capcom Kyo was really fun, and for a while it was the only Kyo I appreciated, tihs of course being before I played KOF2002. Vice actually has some priority but isn’t as damaging or as fast, Iori can’t rape you instantaneously but you more than likely will be his bitch, and Chang isn’t boring as hell. Does this make them better? Not in every case, and its not like Capcom didn’t have anything to work with.

A lot of people fail to realize that KOF was released annually up until 2003. Develop characters, test when you can, any bullshit? Who cares? Release and start on the next one. Tweak, tweak, piss, bless, release. Tweak, tweak, piss, bless, release! It went on like that for some time until SNK vanished and Gaymore decided to rape the legacy with 01 and SVC. Still, the annual thing has been dropped, and KOF will actually have some development time on better hardware so that they can release a long standing game that has the amount of growth potential that CVS2 has attained and used.

How long does it take Capcom to release a new game? No, seriously, I can’t complete my full argument without accurate information. It is my assumption that it probably isn’t an annual release which works in their favor hence CVS2 is as good as it is.

Oh and I’m pretty sure there will be no CVS3. Just a guess.

[Ultima]

re: Rugal

As Arturo said, I was talking about playable Rugal. Actually, I disagree with him in that all his specials aside from his DP are better in CvS2 - his reflector is definitely better in KoF (less recovery, reflects supers IIRC), and I think his God Press has slightly better recovery. Also, I thought his DP was crap in both, though it made more sense in CvS series. But anyway, overall, CvS2 Rugal looks, sounds and plays 289071238712837128 times better than that thug in KoF.

Sacred Edge KH:

Actually, they’ve made zero “truly balanced” games. No one has made “truly balanced” games. They’ve made a handful of reasonably balanced games (in which case, HF balance > ST’s, 3S and CvS2 [WTF???]). Also, WTF does balance have to do with this (flame bait) discussion?

I’ll agree with you in that I think the question is kinda stupid. There’s not enough proof to really answer it. Capcom has had two tries, and they’ve some had hits and misses. I mean, I adore CvS2 Rugal, and several of the others aren’t too bad, Chang is a lot more interesting now, but I don’t like what they did to Haohmaru (People have mentioned Nakoruru, but I can’t recall seeing his name in this thread so far), Ryo and King are kinda bleh, etc. Capcom had to “general balance” both sides (SNK fans keep talking about the SNK characters getting nerfed, but why don’t they talk about most of the Capcom characters getting toned down as well?) so that no one would be outrageously overpowered (on paper anyway), so several of the KoF characters seemed somewhat dull compared to their KoF counterparts, even if they end up being pretty strong in the game a la Kyo and Iori. I think CvS2 would have been better if they just made both sides as powerful as they could and let the grooves sort things out.

Now I have to admit, I think in theory that Capcom could do SNK better than SNK, cause when they’re both at the top of their game, I throw my weight fully behind Capcom. But I don’t have real proof of it so far. Plus, if one were to get technical, when Capcom does SNK, it really turns SNK into Capcom, and hence Capcom is’t really doing SNK but just doing an altered form of Capcom. Blah.

Speaking of balance, did I see someone say on the previous page that Garou: MOTW was balanced? What mutant version of MOTW is this?

[Slide]

In KOF, alot of the fighters have way too many useless moves. And it becomes braindead.

Capcom did a great job of making them more versatile.

[jae_hoon]

Ultima: The same people who think Garou has good balance are the same people who think 3S has good balance. When in fact there both decent but not good.

[Nocturnal]

Garou Set 1 for the arcade or the DC version are balanced…everyone has a chance of winning in the game. It all really falls under who has the better playing skills, yes even Freeman can win. There are 100% combos with certain characters yes…thats where TOP mode comes in. There are no infinites in the Set 1 Garou arcade and DC version of the game. The prototype version and fixed version have all the wacky infinite breaks and faints. That’s all I wanted to say…later.

Jaime

[Higher-Jin]

Capcom had to “general balance” both sides (SNK fans keep talking about the SNK characters getting nerfed, but why don’t they talk about most of the Capcom characters getting toned down as well?) so that no one would be outrageously overpowered (on paper anyway), so several of the KoF characters seemed somewhat dull compared to their KoF counterparts, even if they end up being pretty strong in the game a la Kyo and Iori. I think CvS2 would have been better if they just made both sides as powerful as they could and let the grooves sort things out.
t

I don’t get why they are complaining

KOF characters tend to have twice the special move list that capcom does.

It’s also a different game and alot of characters rely on specials alot unless one of their few normals are good.

They gained normals in CVS2 and alot of them were pretty good normals so how can it be fair to give them all their special moves with all the utility they had in kof.

Even in kof not all the specials are useful (power dunk sucks ass 90% of the time, MOTW version it’s good but he has no rising tackle)

Even without all the uber specials alot of them were pretty good characters and it’s not like SNK occupies the low tier alone capcom has just about as many down there too.

Off the top of my head Kyosuke, Gief, and Dan are all in buk’s 8 worst character list, that’s almost half right there.

It’s not like they plan it to be this way, it just happens… it’s bound to happen with a roster this big and so many grooves, so many possibilities.

[Xenozip]

snip

Out of curiosity: Why is the length of time it took for a game to evolve directly related to the over all depth of the game?

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe the games mentioned are deep games that have evolved quite a bit. But, I had always thought that depth was directly related to the ammount of tactics, skill, variety, and character match-ups that are involved in high level competition.

I don’t see why the time it takes for a game to evolve to it’s peak gives it more depth.

If for example, one game had 15 “features” that made it more deep after 1 year of being released, and another game had also had 15 “features” that made it deep after 5 years of being released, are they not equally deep games after 5 years?

I’m not necessarily disagreeing. Perhaps I just don’t understand.

The versus series don’t make the characters better… ever.

Hahaha.

---

On a side note, some people have said that some of the SNK characters got “butchered” in CvS2. Well, I think Capcom also “butchered” some of their own characters as well.

For example, I can’t see how Kyosuke, Yun, and Morrigan are “better” in CvS2 than they are in their respective ‘previous games of appearance’ (Rival Schools 2, 3rd Strike, and Vampire Savior 2). I also don’t see how Dhalsim could be “better” in CvS2 than his ST or A3 incarnations, either (I don’t count the EX series). You might also argue the same about Zangief’s ST and A3 incarnations depending on how you look at it.

And incidentally, of course they butchered Ryo, they’ve been butchering him ever since they created Dan.

But, as far as weather or not Capcom did the SNK characters better than SNK did, well… I personally wouldn’t be able to say for sure unless both the “Capcom versions” and the “SNK versions” were in the same game, along with the other Capcom characters, so I don’t have much of an opinion about that.

[System_1]

Sabin: Please do not equate ALL KOF players to be like someone whom you insinuated to be of questionable skill level.

That being said, not all are suckers for KOF soap opera or into their “in-depth” characterisation. Please recognise the fact that there are genuine players. Please acknowledge the fact that the SNK players here on the whole may not be able to represent the true picture.

In addition, you do know this is a pro capcom forum community. Posters here adopt a “flame newbie and SNK” attitude. Those who are pro SNK are ridiculed often, although I must say at times due to faults of their own.

Ok, SNK games sell better in Asia. E.g. Japan, Korea and Singapore(where I am from.) Where I am, KOF is enjoyed at many levels. From expert class to scrub level.
I don’t know what is the consenus of players who are not from the US so bear with me if you think I am a scrub.

My feelings for CvS2 (the KOF characters wise) is that I am trying to play KOF in a Capcom game. The characters feel weird, stiff perhaps, not to mention apart from N-Iori and K-Yamazaki who are close to upper mid tier, the KOF characters all seemed to be pretty lack luster. Those who play Capcom more wouldn’t have this problem obviously.

I am also not sure of your KOF mileage. But wouldn’t the situation that you tried playing Capcom in a KOF game happen too? Wouldn’t the KOF characters feel weird/stiff to you when you played KOF?

The template for Benimaru in CvS2, if I am not mistaken is based of KOF 98 Beni. I don’t really use Beni in the KOF series so I can not comment much.

I do beg to differ that CvS2 Vice is better than KOF Vice. I use Vice quite a fair bit. IMO, you give a too simplistic overview of KOF Vice.

KOF Vice2k2.
Her Stand D(near and far) has very good priority. The near version combos easily while the far version works as a nice poke and ok anti air.

D, F+A, HCF kick is a damaging combo and is not very punishable when blocked.

Her normal moves like Stand C, down A/B/D are very good pokes.

Contray to what you said, her down B is good. As she crouches quite low, it can be used as an anti air too. Down B can be comboed to her shoulder charge too. It is a very good move.

The priority of her grabs are among the best in the game. They also have great range.

One way to sucker the Super grab from hitting is by down D a waking up opponent. As the opponent blocks low, do F+A. Done correctly the F+A will register as an overhead which will hit the low blocking opponent. Command moves lose their overhead properties if they are comboed into in KOF btw. It is possible to bypass this by delaying the overhead move.

From there, you can do her grab super or proceed with a BC combo.

I do not know how my post reads. Will I be ridiculed as an ignorant SNK scrub?

[System_1]

The characters feel weird, stiff perhaps, not to mention apart from N-Iori and K-Yamazaki who are close to upper mid tier, the KOF characters all seemed to be pretty lack luster.

N-Yama > K-Yama, and CvS2 S.RH > KOF far D.

[Saotome_Kaneda]

D, F+B, HCF kick is a damaging combo and is not very punishable when blocked.

You meant f+A, right?

[Festival6667]

Garou Set 1 for the arcade or the DC version are balanced…everyone has a chance of winning in the game. It all really falls under who has the better playing skills, yes even Freeman can win. There are 100% combos with certain characters yes…thats where TOP mode comes in. There are no infinites in the Set 1 Garou arcade and DC version of the game. The prototype version and fixed version have all the wacky infinite breaks and faints. That’s all I wanted to say…later.

Jaime

True, very true
…though you miss one big point: even if the charas are mostly balanced (not perfectly but which game is perfect?), the players are not balanced ! So even if the game is quite balanced… the differences between players will still make people disagree on everything and anything :rolleyes:

[System_1]

re: Rugal

As Arturo said, I was talking about playable Rugal. Actually, I disagree with him in that all his specials aside from his DP are better in CvS2 - his reflector is definitely better in KoF (less recovery, reflects supers IIRC), and I think his God Press has slightly better recovery. Also, I thought his DP was crap in both, though it made more sense in CvS series. But anyway, overall, CvS2 Rugal looks, sounds and plays 289071238712837128 times better than that thug in KoF.

Sacred Edge KH:

Actually, they’ve made zero “truly balanced” games. No one has made “truly balanced” games. They’ve made a handful of reasonably balanced games (in which case, HF balance > ST’s, 3S and CvS2 [WTF???]). Also, WTF does balance have to do with this (flame bait) discussion?

I say truly balanced because one or some cases quite a few character(s) will not immediately have a complete edge over the entire cast. There aren’t any broken characters, thus the balance is legitimate, as opposed to say Tekken 5? The reason I bring up balance is because I feel that to be one of the important factors of a good game.

[Higher-Jin]

Sabin: Please do not equate ALL KOF players to be like someone whom you insinuated to be of questionable skill level.

That being said, not all are suckers for KOF soap opera or into their “in-depth” characterisation. Please recognise the fact that there are genuine players. Please acknowledge the fact that the SNK players here on the whole may not be able to represent the true picture.

In addition, you do know this is a pro capcom forum community. Posters here adopt a “flame newbie and SNK” attitude. Those who are pro SNK are ridiculed often, although I must say at times due to faults of their own.

Ok, SNK games sell better in Asia. E.g. Japan, Korea and Singapore(where I am from.) Where I am, KOF is enjoyed at many levels. From expert class to scrub level.
I don’t know what is the consenus of players who are not from the US so bear with me if you think I am a scrub.

My feelings for CvS2 (the KOF characters wise) is that I am trying to play KOF in a Capcom game. The characters feel weird, stiff perhaps, not to mention apart from N-Iori and K-Yamazaki who are close to upper mid tier, the KOF characters all seemed to be pretty lack luster. Those who play Capcom more wouldn’t have this problem obviously.

I am also not sure of your KOF mileage. But wouldn’t the situation that you tried playing Capcom in a KOF game happen too? Wouldn’t the KOF characters feel weird/stiff to you when you played KOF?

The template for Benimaru in CvS2, if I am not mistaken is based of KOF 98 Beni. I don’t really use Beni in the KOF series so I can not comment much.

I do beg to differ that CvS2 Vice is better than KOF Vice. I use Vice quite a fair bit. IMO, you give a too simplistic overview of KOF Vice.

KOF Vice2k2.
Her Stand D(near and far) has very good priority. The near version combos easily while the far version works as a nice poke and ok anti air.

D, F+B, HCF kick is a damaging combo and is not very punishable when blocked.

Her normal moves like Stand C, down A/B/D are very good pokes.

Contray to what you said, her down B is good. As she crouches quite low, it can be used as an anti air too. Down B can be comboed to her shoulder charge too. It is a very good move.

The priority of her grabs are among the best in the game. They also have great range.

One way to sucker the Super grab from hitting is by down D a waking up opponent. As the opponent blocks low, do F+A. Done correctly the F+A will register as an overhead which will hit the low blocking opponent. Command moves lose their overhead properties if they are comboed into in KOF btw. It is possible to bypass this by delaying the overhead move.

From there, you can do her grab super or proceed with a BC combo.

I do not know how my post reads. Will I be ridiculed as an ignorant SNK scrub?

your forgetting kyo who according to buktooth is High Mid, right below the top tier

so are:

hibiki, geese and rock

right below that are

todo, vice, rugal, athena, mai, nakoruru, chang and joe

keep in mind that they are in the same tier as eagle who some (popoblo mainly)

argue is high-mid

they are useable and are pretty good, you don’t only use the top tier in kof do you?

they are solid middle tier so even from those it’s not too bad of a selection

even if you do only like top tier this is taken from buk’s thread and he is a pretty respected player in cvs2 iirc

Anyway, the high-mid tier was composed solely of characters that are pretty much top tier, and often are considered top tier by many respected people. How many people besides yourself believe that Eagle is top tier?

(directed at popoblo’s arguement for eagle to be bumped up a tier)

This is just to show that cvs2 does have some good snk characters