I played some dude at this place one time and he knew very little about CvS2 and more about Street Fighter. So I pick Rugal to test him and keep throwin out Charged Kaiser waves at him and he yells that’s cheap. The fact is, he likes to turtle a lot so I figure to just wear away his guard bar and go for a combo or something.
Anywayz, I don’t need anyone to post how to beat that kind of play here. So I’m asking, do you think it’s cheap and could you beat someone that plays like that? I mean, I know for sure that I could beat someone that does that so I’m just trying to get feedback here.
Remember ppl, don’t post how to beat it here, he might come on here and see it lol.
i think it’s cheap to over abuse a move that someone has no idea have to overcome
i remember when i first started playing, and my team was zangief/raiden/chang k groove…
this one guy used rugal, ryu, akuma and threw fireballs all day and another else…and didn’t kno how to jd that well yet so i got owned badly and i was mad cuz he killed me with rugal only(kaiser waved me all day, and another else)
but…i don’t think kaiser wave isn’t cheap, if that guy throws a lot of fireballs and jumps backward a lot and continues fireball…
if he’s doing that and you can go ahead and kaiser wave his ass, he’s the one that wants to play pussy style, you can join him
No that’s not cheap. If there was absolutly no way around it then yeah it could be justified as cheap. But there are plenty of ways to get around a Kaiser wave. The guy was just dumb.
it’s the same with rugal, if you can’t figure out how to get through ryu’s “fireball/shoryuken only” tactic…you probably can’t figure out how to get through “kaiser wave/kick cutter upper thingy” tactic
i think it’s classified as cheap when it’s extremely easy to do and much harder to avoid (than other moves or tactics the other guy should be trying to do), and then you abuse it badly…then that’s cheap…even if the other guy knoes exactly how to beat that kind of tactic…then…the rugal player will lose while playing cheaply…
just cuz you can get around it, doesn’t mean it’s not cheap…
Ok, let me rephrase that. If you can get around it as easy as him doing it, (such as with the Kaiser wave example) then no it’s not cheap. Lets take some examples of what you can do.
If you are right next to him.
Roll
Jump
throw a fireball of your own
and here’s a good one … remember this now… hit him…oh what a concept.
Parry,
Just defend
Use moment of invicibilty in super.
If he is on the other side of the screen.
Do the extended jump at the right distance to avoid the Kaiser wave and kick him in the head
Throw a fireball
wait till he throws it and roll
parry
just defend
taunt
In this situation set Rugal and set tactic are not cheap… there is also Air blocking. Plus the original poster said they were Charged Kaiser waves. If getting around the technique is as easy as doing the technique the person is doing, then it’s not cheap. The opponent is just stoopid.
Anyone calling anyone “cheap,” when they haven’t used anything that hacks the game all to hell, sucks.
And to the smart asses that may come in here, an RC is not a hack.
If you can’t figure out the options around something, there are two possibilities: He is better, or the game is fucked. Guess what it is 9.999999999999999999 times out of 10?
That doesn’t change the fact that the guy yelling “cheap” still sucks worse than the other guy winning, even if the other guy winning is not that great.
See, this is where you differentiate the scrubs that don’t have a clue and guys who are good. You don’t ever hear “cheap” being used in the brackets at Evolution. But you hear it in the tiny ass pathetic mall arcade where the guy who can mash on KKK with Maki thinks he’s the shit and suddenly someone picks Ryu and does the fireball/uppercut pattern beats him.
well if i remember all the way back in alt.games.sf2 cheap is defined as “low risk, high rewards”. So if you’re rugal and you’re doing kaiserwave against K or P groove, then yes by strict definition it is “cheap”.
As for there not being cheapness at high level play, i think you mean “tourney play”. High level play is just skilled players sparring. In tourney play everyone’s abusing the game system to the max so basically nothing is cheap because EVERYTHING is cheap.
Of course the rugal kaiser wave example isn’t cheap at all if say makoto was the one playing p-groove. In which case the risk vs rewards factor is much much higher.
Of course if we watch the SBO finals we see that even in tourney play there’s different degrees of cheapness. Sakura’s dive kick charges meter and recovers instantly. Charge up meter activate cc and wins round whether you block or not. The risk vs rewards for a sakura custom is so lopsided it’s cheap no matter how you look at it.
You don’t seem to understand that “cheap” is nonexistent, no matter what angle you come from.
There is skilled, average, and unskilled. When the unskilled start thinking “cheapness” exists, they get demoted to suck. When the suck start actively trying to convince bystanders that thier loss was the direct cause of “cheapness,” they get demoted again to stupid mall scrub. That’s the bottom of the totem pole.
Doing repeated Kaiser Waves against K or P Groove is far from cheap. It’s slow enough to Parry or JD on reaction. Every time Rugal winds back one more time, you Parry or JD one more hit to a maximum of three total hits. Rugal dies if he trys this to any average or skilled player in K or P. I’ll go out on a limb and say even an unskilled player would kick his ass. Suck and Stupid Mall Scrub lose horribly to this though.
Are you calling all tourney play cheap? As in, the entirety of Evolution is cheapness? If you are, you’re a retard and you don’t know how to play SF.
Sakura’s dive kick does not have instant recovery. It has the same recovery as Cammy’s Cannon Strike. The trick is to catch the opponent’s sprite low enough so that the recovery matches the blockstun animation forced on the opposing sprite. For meter building, you jump back and cancel the peak of your jump coming forward, so that you stay in the same place and leave yourself at less risk of being hit while doing so. Second, the CC is not an instant kill - It is to P and K Groove specifically because of the size of the guard crush meters and lack of ability to Alpha Counter. Even then, blocked, the CC does 55% damage (on average). That’s not instant kill, that’s half your life. Since you’re a retard if you pick a Groove that instantly gets countered by A Sak, that’s not cheap, that’s stupid. You pick a Groove that has Alpha Counter, or Guard Cancel Roll.
I reiterate: If you think cheapness exists in a game like CvS2, you’re a retard and you can’t play it. Bottom line.
funny…I didn’t say cheapness = lockdown or cheapness = instant win. I use the definition of cheapness that was generally agreed upon back in the newsgroup days, of something that has lopsided low risk/high reward. Doing kaiser wave just outside of jump-in against an uncharged P/K-groove is definitely going to be advantageous to Rugal. The mix-up is there, and just randomly timing the wave is enough to stop people from parrying/jd’ing it consistently.
Did i say it’s unbeatable? No. Nor did I say a-sakura is. If you are using my definition of low risk/high rewards, you’ll see why I call it cheap. And in that same route, yes, tourney play is all about “cheapness”. Why would you do ANYTHING where the reward doesn’t overshadow the risk? Look at the final round of A-sakura vs C-Sagat. Are you telling me that the flow of the match WASN’T controlled by a fully charged Sakura? Everything that Daigo was doing was keeping in mind that if he fucks up he eats the custom. The custom by itself isn’t dominating, but the fear of it is.
Saying cheapness doesn’t exist seems to me more of people patting themselves on the back for getting around it then recognizing the basic mechanics in a game. You say, “You don’t seem to understand that “cheap” is nonexistent, no matter what angle you come from.” Basically you assume I’m a scrub as soon as I say “so-and-so have an advantage”, instead of noting that I gave a different definition of cheapness. I’m sure you’re a pro that doesn’t feel intimidated by a fully-charged A-sakura. Hell maybe you don’t even bat an eye playing against Akuma in ST with Zangief. But if you don’t feel that the match is being dictated by the Akuma and Sakura in those situations then you’re simply ignoring my definition.
I tried as hard as I can not to sound offended in my reply, hopefully I convinced you to re-read the low risk/high reward definition again before hoisting yourself up by bashing people.
As far as I read, you were trying to justify the concept of cheap with risk/reward.
And the retard line was not directed, it was a generalized statement directed at any particular person who does wholeheartedly believe that cheapness exists as a means to explain a win/loss scenario.
Sorry if you took that personally, the only part that was directed specifically at you was the part about tourney play.
despite how you choose to interpret it, I am not “justifying” a definition, but merely providing one that is more productive than any that has been provided so far. It seems you’re still in a mental-set that is making this discussion harder than it has to be.
The concept of calling something cheap isn’t so scrubs have an excuse when they lose to fb+dp, ("cheapness exists as a means to explain a win/loss scenario) it’s to point out something in the game that can be fixed. You can call it “broken” or “god tier” or “horrible match-up”, I call it “cheap”. In any fighting game there’s going to be characters/moves that is just that much better than almost everything else out there.
Tourney is all about winning, and logically anything that isn’t banned is going to be used. If Akuma wasn’t banned in ST tourneys you can bet anyone serious about winning will be using him. At your previous post you said the counter to A-Sakura is to pick a groove with counters. If anything that proves my point even more. The prescence of the CC is so overpowering it renders K/P completely pointless, according to you. Saying “pick such and such character” or “pick such and such team” is a defeatist idea that I never agreed with in any fighting game. It’s already in the game, so of course, either you deal with it or go play something else. But that shouldn’t stop you from recognizing that it shouldn’t be there in the first place. By saying cheapness don’t exist in a tourney situation, you’re also ignoring the fact that tourneys, character wise, are way more monotonous than casaul gameplay.
Every groove and character has options, or lack thereof. It’s pretty common knowledge that, on paper, A beats P & K, C & N beat A, and P & K beat C & N. (this is strictly theory fighter)
The thing is, each Groove has a set of options. There are six unique Grooves that all offer a different set of options. Some Grooves have an advantage over others or vice versa. This is not cheapness, this is balance. It keeps one or the other from being overpowered. A Sak kills P or K anyone, but anyone with Alpha Counter can stop her CC. And so on. This isn’t defeatist at all, it’s just the mechanic to keep everything competitive.
Something like using Gouki in ST, that’s not allowed in play. Because it’s UNbalanced. There is no balancing factor to even him out. That’s not cheap, that’s unbalanced. That’s like if Shin Gouki or God Rugal retained the same Ratio stamina they have when they are the computer if you used them yourself. That would be ridiculously unbalanced. This is also why characters have different stamina levels. Gouki in CvS2 has umpteenth moves and can juggle like a circus freak - the balancing factor is that he takes hit like a red headed stepchild. Is it cheap if I pick Sentinel-esque Sagat against him, because Sagat has death hits and ridiculous stamina? No. If Gouki could deal damage and take hits like Sagat, Sagat would be laughable.