Do you think Gouken is a Vortex Character?

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I said it in the other thread but:

For me, a true vortex character needs a meaty set-up on wake-up that beats uppercuts+a follow-up on frame 1 after blockstun has ended, Gouken to me doesn’t meet that requirement and Ibuki and Akuma do. They are the only “true” Vortex characters in the game IMO, Elfuerte/Viper/Cammy etc are not. Rush-down, they are, vortex they are not.

If Akuma and Ibuki get a hard knockdown and start their vortex, the only option you really have is to block and then guess. The guess is forced because they have essentially extended your helpless state until a point where they have already entered a neutral state.

Gouken certainly has a strong mix-up game on hard knockdown but that isn’t really a vortex. He can’t even beat auto-correct uppercuts.

The definition of a Vortex…


The “Vortex” is a term used in Street Fighter 4 to describe having a number of different attack options after landing an untechable knockdown.

An example of the vortex is when playing Akuma and after landing a neutral throw, you can dash twice and go for a cross up Hurricane Kick, Jump In Medium Kick, Empty Jump and go for a throw etc etc.

Another example is with Ibuki after landing a sweep or Neckbreaker. From here you can go in for a Super Jump Light Kunai, Jump In Light Kick Cross up or empty jump into throw among other things.

Last updated on June 24, 2010 by haunts*

This is where I disagree with you guys… Gouken can jump in for free on a bunch of characters in a bunch of situations… and they have no offensive choice but to block. Uppercut or no uppercut… Why wouldn’t this be vortex if they can’t do anything about me jumping in??? and I can punish them or knock them down again for trying to get out?? I’ve always used Gouken this way…

I’m not putting all the srk stuff vidoes up… b/c you can’t auto-correct any of those… I’ve seen some people try to delay the srk, but if you time the kick right, it beats those too…

Beating Auto-Corrects

Auto-correct not working…

In this situation it’s not an actual cross up… the outcome is decided specifically what the Dudley player does and auto-correct doesn’t work.

auto-correct doesn’t work

auto-correct doesn’t work

auto-correct doesn’t work here b/c It’s really not a cross up…

auto-correct doesn’t work here…

I tried some of those set-ups, you can beat many of them just by crouch jabbing on wake-up, with ken anyway… not a vortex…

You’re timing it wrong… but ok.

sometimes they can’t even block shit or back dash into more knockdowns…the vortex is strong with this one.

Ofc he is a vortex character.
If you guess right you keep the opponent knocked down.
If you don’t then you might get punished, but that happens to Ibuki, Akuma and ALL the other vortex chars, too. :wink:

Yes but gouken is not vortex heavy like the others I would say Gouken has vortex only in certain situations.

Goukens main vortex is after a hard knock down df dive kick on top of the shoulder against most of the cast and this gives gouken free pressure for a chance to land another knock down.

Gouken vortex in certain situations allow Gouken to hit in the front or back creating a 50/50

Not as good as Akuma and Ibuki because they can do their vortex after any hard knockdown. Gouken only it certain situations vs certain characters and the location on the stage.

This will change in USF4 with the delay wake up.

gouken surely has some good options of mix up or pressure on opps wake up, but it is by far not as effective or ambigious as the prominent examples. almost all (!) chars have some good mix ups on kd outside of meaties, i would not go as far as saying gouken is a vortex char now…

Truthfully I wasn’t sure who to vote on this. Then I saw DEK09’s highlight video.

A lot of people don’t realize what this argument means

We are not arguing whether Gouken is good. Or Gouken have good vortex. We are arguing whether this character is based around his Vortex. The answer is simple when you look at what he can do outside of his vortex.

The truthful thing is that there is nothing for him! He doesn’t have a particularly strong fireball game. He can’t do footise for shit. He is obviously not a grappler. He only have slightly above average frame trap. He have no wake up options. He have poor specials compare to majority of the class. So what else does he have?

His Vortex is really his only primary feature. Everything else fall behind his vortex. Therefore he have to be a vortex character.

Saying he is not as good as other character in vortex just means that you don’t understand the argument.

c c c c c c c c cccccombo-breaker!

i say his mix up on kd is not good/ambigious enough to be called vortex, as almost all chars have similar options. the whole game evolved to kd set ups… nevermind pointless…

Gouken has a solid footsie, fireball game, and has the best throw in the game :smiley:

Ultra ex tat will nearly complete him

Eddie his footsie + fb-game is solid, but its not that good, as ID01 said about the vortex, so it is with those tools.
We can’t buffer a lk into combo (lk, lp, mp or the like) and we don’t have a non charge two hit fireball.

Does he have very ambiguous/choose-from-thiiiissss-many-options okizeme?
If that oki hits, does it realistically lead into another setup?

Those are the only questions that need to be answered to say whether Gouken has a vortex or not. Now, whether the vortex is strong or not is another thing entirely - the rewards range from Fuerte to Cammy, the safety on a wrong guess from fairly good to atrocious. How much the character has to rely on their vortex game is another thing entirely. But really, all it boils down to “can this character put someone else in a blender?”

I don’t know how many options you expect, when you say “thiiiissss-many”. But even I as a layman can tell you that apart from specific setups you simply have the demon flip with 2 options dive kick or throw, a very ambiguous jump arc, which also can be changed by the normal dive kick, an instant air tatsu which can easily cross up, a backthrow which has to be teched late and the counter which punishes baited crouch techs among other things.
Those are only the tools you have, as I said, there are countless specific setups which make these tools good enough.
As ID01 said, the vortex might not be as good as Akumas, but it is definitely Goukens best tool and its better as Elfs because it leads into more damage. (Damagewise its even better than Akumas and Ibukis but the mixups might be less strong)

Guys, vortex is something that leads form something in a knockdown, into something else that leads into knockdown etc, with every instance of it making you guess a 50-50 wether you will get hit by it and get knocked down. How does this apply to Gouken? His setups are safejumps that lead into big damage, not into knockdowns.

Sweep = knockdown?