SF3 with no parry is like pizza without the cheese.
Wait, maybe that’s a bad analogy…
that’s only because of rolling/dodge/just defend/parry.
ken’s shippu still isn’t all that great, you have to hit confirm it’s punishable on block nothing’s really changed, you still can’t trhrow it out at random.
And as far as chunli reversing it with her crappy fire ball, she doesn’t have that good recovery on it and she would most likely put herself in frame disadvantage since they would probably recover by the time she nullifies their projectile (across the screen).
you can’t just up and kick people in the face all the time, you gotta predict it and now that she jumps and there’s no parry if she guesses wrong it’s SHORYUKEN
With remy there is a very small window where she can hit you in the face she can’t turtle, there is no roll or parry all she can do is jump or nullify and if she just so happens to jump up foward she isn’t turtling now is she? she’s now close to you and unless she jumped rather early after you released the fire ball you probably would have recovered and now moving in on her (this is especially true with remy’s lovs)
Fireballs do make you move, the fact is parry is one of the worst things ever implemented in a fighting game, 3s may be a good game but i still think parry sucks.
it eliminates distance game,
makes most strategies revolve around : Be random, and doing safe quick moves so you odn’t get your ass parried
and viscant also said it doesn’t make you think in order to solve a problem that’s in front of you, you just have to press foward on the joy stick, problem solved.
Also the reason it’s so balanced is because all characters have the 2 best moves in the game, parry + throw the characters that have more abusive extra stuff and gain most from parry are the top tier. (yes viscant said this first >_> but i agree somewhat)
you can’t parry everything, but you dont’ have to, the fact it’s there makes this game unlike any “real” sf game (the intimidation of a parry would also make a few people use safer moves because if you get parried it’s your ass), it’s still a good game but it is very unlike sf2 simply because there are no obstacles (fire balls are nothing) and alot of the characters don’t really have that many “unique” ways with dealing with each character. most characters can somewhat be dealt with the same way: with a well placed parry in the right places. It used to be more about my character’s tools vs. your character’s tools and yes the characters are different but you can deal with too much, the same way and with all characters and that kinda takes out variety to a much larger extent, down to the very way you play.
there are still mind games but they are somewhat different mostly revolving around parry/throw/hit and being random.
forgot about that, damn chun.
ah well at least she can’t avoid ex lovs.
parrying doesnt break the game but i wish it was harder to do, maybe something like cvs2 timing. i’m not saying cvs2 timing is great but i feel its way too easy to tap forward and go into a low forward-> super in 3S. maybe if it required a tad more timing then alot of keep away moves would become alot better but still can be punished with a REAL parry not just a high/low guess.
and about lov’s and chun. chun only wins if she has bar, remy can land so many low ex’s on her it’s kinda funny. as soon as u have her trying to predict when u’ll throw one then that just works in your favor and your free to tag her when she whiffs. also remy moves faster (and safer) backwards than chun does forward so he never really has to be infront of her as long as u avoid corners. just stay far away enough that if she did sa2 to go through the LOV u would have recovered if u stay this distance away the whole round only coming in to throw or hit her low u win.
meh i don’t really favor option select , i know you get to do what you wanted to do anything plus the additional bonus of being able to parry something for free + hit your opp if they just so happen to hit you in a certain place.
it doesn’t break the game, but i think i would’ve preferred a sf game without parry or rolling.
maybe air blocking + dashing,
this game was simply designed with parrying in mind so it would be weird to play it without out as much as i’d rather not have parry in a game.
i rememeber (yea i know i sound like a fan boy) but vicsant said that if there was a parry whiff animation that would be better, or you have to press foward foward, (if you dont’ parry you dash leaving you vulnerable) or down down (and have a laying down animation like in samurai showdown (i think) it would be pretty cool if there was a parry whiff but there isn’t sf4 hopefully won’t have parrying of any kind, it should be the sf2 sequel most people wanted.
Err.
There’s still distance game, it’s just not Full Screen Stay The Hell Away From Me, like it used to be.
Parrying makes it more complicated for the defender in some situations, not less. Ryu players often STILL mix up fireballs as pokes at mid-range. It’s up to you whether you want to take one in the face, block to be safe, or keep walking up and parrying them. Akuma’s multi-hit fireballs lock people down instead of just pushing them back like they used to. You can parry it and hope he doesn’t mix you up, you can take a little on the chin so you recover in time to reversal, you can block and just reset the pressure, whatever. Remy… duh.
Parrying, for me, just eliminates the bullshit fireball traps of yore. Damage that COULD NOT be prevented before now allows for other options. And I welcome them.
N
fire ball traps tend not to work perfectly, and usually end up with you getting hit in the face.
i don’t play this game and i guess i could be wrong for making the statements i have.
I still think parry was a bad idea, there was nothing wrong with a fireball and there probably never will be the trade off was that you commit yourself to shooting a fireball you do minimal damage and they can easily do 3 times or more damage (alot more if they were all blocked) if they ever get their hands on your hadouken spamming self.
Fireballs were pressure and a obstacle it’s funny cuz it’s really hard to be a true turtle in other games, usually real turtles tend to have the ability to make fireballs ineffective.
Examples: Chun li , Ice man
in mvc2 it’s kinda different simply because most “regular fireballs” wont’ make that much of a difference, you can hit cable 20 times with a fireball (blocked) all he has to do is get one ahvb on you and he has a big lead, if he has 3 meters you’re dead and at least one third of your overall life is gone.
it’s funny that the most hated defensive tactic (turtling) is usually born out of lack of the second most hated defensive tactic (keep away, chip damage).
i mean are you really going to sit still and let ice man chip you to death in mvc2 or let ryu hit you with 30 hadoukens in sf2t?
it actually gets action started, if you refuse to take action, you lose.
I still disagree.
For the first bit: Oldschool fireballs, properly applied, were FREE damage. You do them on wakeup, when it’s safe, and in traps. If they jump, you uppercut them. There’s little risk there if you’re competent. See also: Zangief vs Ryu/Sagat, any oldschool SF ever.
If you don’t play 3s, it really seems a lot worse on paper than it ever is. You can’t blindly shoot out fireballs as keepaway anymore, but hell, did you really want that to keep going forever? Negro please. I outlined the previous examples because they all show how fireball pressure has evolved with the game, instead of being left behind.
The second: Again, on paper Iceman’s a great anti-Cable/Beamer character. Then you remember that Marvel’s a team game, and Doom DESTROYS Iceman outright.
Regular fireballs are poorly implemented in Marvel in the first place, simple by nature of how the game works. Everyone’s way too mobile to get locked down with a slow arsed SF-standard fireball, as with most other SF-standard techniques. That’s why SF characters suck ass in general against the Marvel characters.
I can definitely see how, in the low-mid level game, these things seem like a problem. But when you’re really into any of these games, it becomes really apparent how obsolete some of your theories are.
N
Dr. Doom doesn’t destroy ice man, he has a assist that chips him, that’s all. Doom’s normal method of chipping (pink shit) don’t chip him and it’s too slow to really use on point (when’s the last time someone used molecular shield)
Ice man on paper is good against beam characters but no one in capcom really saw the ahvb coming.
Free damage? You have to get the knock down first, i personally don’t consider it free most fire balls have alot of recovery to them (recovery around 3/4 of the screen usually)and those that don’t tend to be charge moves, which makes it impossible to anti air someone with a charge anti air afterwards unless your playing svc chaos(1 second charge >_>).
Yes sf2t ryu is a real threat but that’s also because another thing that escaped the creators : trip guard.
Ryu’s good fireball recovery plus reversal dragon punches coupled with a person that can do it more reliably than the machine itself (COUGH* daigo) will make it look cheap as fuck.
But keep away is far from skilless and i doubt you’ll be throwin random fireballs whenever you feel like it cuz you will get a foot to the face and in st a foot to the face usually leads to death.
it’s a trade off, does damage no matter what but it’s not the same ammount of damage it’s usually something close to 1 damage versus a light attack (around 4 damage) which usually leads to something alot worse, not to mention a fierce is usually around 13 damage which equals you connecting with 13 blocked fireballs. (these figures are more skewed towards fireballs somewhat in st but in most other games it’s more like i described)
Well, we could all try it for fun I guess, isn’t there an option to play without parries in the System Direction, well at least for the Dreamcast version.
i think fire balls come into play not as a damage factor but as an addition to pokes. if i’m up on life and the opponent is near death i’m going to throw everything but the kitchen sink at them and they’ll slip up and will die from a shot.
3S projectiles r good in that game because everyone with a fire ball uses them differently, and if your willing to burn some bar for ex they become a larger threat because of the added hit, speed and damage.
i’ve even seen some ibuki players zoning pretty well with ex kunai and normal ones. it becomes an optional part of her game that can be used sparingly (just like everything else in the game) but works. example: random tiger knee ex kunai
i take back what i said earlier u cant hate the parrying in the game because everything that was in the previous sf’s is there its just it takes more effort to set up.
I agree with Thongboy. Parry eliminates jackass rushdown and other bullshit scrub tactics.
In theory fighter parry sounds broken, but when it comes down to it, you rarely see “parry exhibitions” in high level play. In fact, the only time you see parry in tournament is when a mid tier player is playing a top tier player. That, or when someone is obviously telegraphing their moves.
The game would still be hella fucking dope cause even without parries, I would still parry shitloads. Prolly everything…
Least Expected
Higher Jin, it sounds to me like you are comparing 3S with Super Turbo too much. I love both games, both are classics, but both are completely different. All those fireball traps, zoning, getting the perfect spacing for your tick throw or cross-up SPD were tremendous fun for many years, but thank god that Capcom altered the game significantly in the 3 series. SF2: CE, SF2: Turbo, SSF2, SSF2T, all are great games but Capcom didn’t really add anything ground-breaking in any of these updates (bar the super-combo). They were more concerned with tweaking the characters, adding a move here, taking a move away there.
3S is totally different, it’s a modern beat em-up. You say you haven’t played it too much, but perhaps you should start playing it. When I first started I thought parry was retarded too, but when you realise just how skillful and how much more you have to think about the game to make use of it’s effectiveness, you begin to appreciate the beauty of 3S. IMHO, parry means you have to think about things MORE than in ST. I think the reveloutionary part of it is that you have to push forward to do it, meaning that if you mess it up, your ass is toast. Blocking always had the plus side that after taking a flurry of attacks, you could sweep, or pull of a flash kick style move if you were a charge character and blocking down-back.
That said, parry isn’t the only thing that makes 3S so popular. I think it’s the combination of parry, down-parry (I think seperating the two was another good idea), dashing, super jumps, UOH’s, two button throws, EX moves and super cancelling. I also think that although some of the charcters look kinda dumb, the way they play is awesome. No fighting game character has ever played like Urien, his reflectors are truly unique. Makoto, Dudley (kinda), Twelve (even though he’s crap), Alex, Oro, they are all pretty unique in terms of the way that they play, especially in comparison to how ST characters play.
There’s nothing wrong with loving the old school, hell Anniversary Edition is an awesome game, but 3S also deserves props for being a: different and b: very good. Just my two cents though.
listen, you make good points.
but you guys act like it’s better when it’s not,
you still have something retarded and that’s option select parry.
you press down and then mk and get a opportunity for a parry, that’s some scrub shit right there, why should you get a bonus for something you were going to do anyways doesn’t that remind anyone of t.hawk’s “invisible throw” ? where he has no whiff animation for his 360 and if he gets you good and if he doesn’t the game goes on as if nothing happened. But the thing is ALL characters had a different broken thing about them and t. hawk could now compete in his respective game, in 3s however all characters have parry and the person with the most extra shit and abusive shit comes out on top since parry is probably one of the best moves in the game and it’s available to everyone you want to benifit from it the most (see: parry, hit confirm anything , shippu). Not to mention the system kinda goes against two in ones with red parry.
it homogonizes the game, if there was parry whiffs like vicsant said i personally would think it’s better but my personal preferences are irrelevant at this point.
I haven’t a leg to stand on, i haven’t played high level 3s hell i haven’t played scrub level 3s but i still think parry is retarded but i guess i’ll have to try it myself because it’s all based on second hand information and my knowledge in other fighting games.
What i DO know however is that there was absoultely nothing wrong with tick throws or fireballs and there never will be it’s what diversified the characters, truly diversified them. On a personal note, I still think parry offers you a solution to too many things which removes part of the “Figuring your way out”.
Higher Jin, You make good points too:
I wouldn’t say that 3S is any better or any worse than ST. They are different games made in different eras. I prefer 3S but i wouldn’t neccesarily say it’s better.
The option select parry? Well that is strong, but you still have to guess that the opponent is going to hit low with the low select parry example you are talking about. Who says you have to hit low? You could do a reversal, wake up super,or do nothing and parry his option slect down parry.
Besides, there is no player that can parry everything. Even when Daigo did his full Chun-Li parry on Justin at Evo, he still got hit by two Hoyusoken’s in that round and it was pretty obvious each time that Justin was going for the low MK into late cancelled SA2. Daigo down parried one of those in round one, but messed it up twice in the last round.
As for parry whiffs. I don’t think they are really needed. If you don’t parry a move at the right time, you get hit, so I think you know that it failed.
Parrying being homogenous? Perhaps, but can’t every character block, throw, jump, even in ST? Red parrying also is is hella hard.
At the end of the day I think we will have to agree to disagree here. Different people like different games and thats cool. But I reccomend 3S to you, if you play it enough I think you’ll like it, even parrying (trying his hardest not to sound like a 3S fanboy).
i’d like to point out.
i never said you COULD parry everything.
also blocking and jumping is basics parry is a real powerful defensive tool with little reprecussion when used in option select
i know you don’t HAVE to hit em low but still outside of a uoh or parry in anticipation i mean you are either going to get parried or get a kick to the shin.
still the parry whiff is good because you can’t option select parry anymore, such as the dash/lay down example you are right you know it failed when you get hit but when you incorporate it with your moves (such as the down, in down foward hadouken or down then mk) it has no reprecussions and think about it what does hugo get from a down mk? now what does ken? it homogonizes the game for most characters cuz most people have to play around parrying , sure they have their unique tools but parry has a huge impact on the game.
you don’t have to have a person who parries everything, the fact you can get parried and will be parried if you do something a bit too much has a huge impact on the game. And the thing is it applies to everything, everything can be parried (cept a kkz) so it’s more about safe fast moves and being random and parrying at the right times and blocking at the right times.
quit crying its not going to happen
With parry the game is fucking awesome wihtout parry the game is still very good IMO
The game would still be great, but it would have to be redesigned a bit. Maybe toning down some of the better normals. Also the jump-in guessing game would disappear.
I like the Just Defend idea more than parrying not only because of ease but because it makes it harder to counterattack which I feel is more balanced. Not hating no 3S it’s a good game in its own way but I’ve played people at arcades (who might not even play fighters) who can’t even do C.MK xx Hadouken but treat parrying like a game itself by just “mastering” parrying and counterattack, ofcourse you can throw them but still. It basically separates 3S player into 3 categories IMO:
- Those who can’t parry well.
2.Those who parry exceptionally well.
3.Those who can’t parry at all.
But whatever, parrying isn’t nearly as bad as ACing in A2.:annoy: Plus I suck at 3S anyways.:bgrin: