This is 2007 dude, you are talking about 2001.
You can’t really talk about putting Doom or IM in top 4 when they only decent match either of them have is v. Cable. And people are downplaying Cable a lot but you can’t sleep on someone who can function as a ghetto AA while giving you full screen death options no matter who your point is. Cyke matches up better vs. top 4 than either of them, Strider too.
a lot of guys in our place use IM because of his inf… that’s about it…
Iron Man? Better than Cable? People, if you’re done with the glue, put the cap on, because the fumes will make you say some really stupid things.
Go to the northwest with your Iron Man and get owned by Cables there. Cable is capable of beating absolutely any character in the game. Meter helps, but ultimately he fills his own meter if he needs to if you’re good enough with him. And Cable with meter ultimately says to any team that you need to be really, really careful about how you call your assists or you’re going to lose them. The counter-AHVB still ruins entire teams. Cable being on a team simply changes the entire way you have to play a game against it.
What does Iron Man change? That you have to jump back a lot? Oh noes.
Iron Man belongs behind BH, because BH is simply the most unrushable character in the game. BH can do his damage from a lot more places on the screen and ultimately only has very bad matchups with characters that can out-turtle him. Plus Sentinel with BH behind him is going to tear Iron Man up something awful.
He belongs behind Spiral, because Spiral ultimately is simply far more mobile, is one of the best first characters in the game for filling the meter for whoever’s behind her, and the best ways to fight her put you in horrible risk of getting counter-shot by Cable.
He belongs behind Doom for much the same reasons he belongs behind Storm. Doom can control more space than Storm when already on point, he can hang at the top of the screen longer, and since you can’t roll out of a photon array like you can out of a lightning storm, he’s actually got more DHCs to hurt people with than Storm does, and a few more that can cover other characters switching in (e.g. photon array into time flip is a perfectly safe switch for Cable). His main problem is, he’s as slow as IM is in hand to hand. I’m not sure why that makes IM better than him. Doom/Sentinel/Cyclops in the hands of a good Doom is probably going to beat basically any team that starts IM, for most of the same reasons Storm/Sentinel/Cyclops will.
He probably belongs behind Strider, for many of the same reasons as Spiral as far as mobility and control, except that Strider isn’t as able to control the air as Spiral is without burning meter, and ultimately wants to keep you confined to the ground or he can’t do much to you. That and the fact that he has basically no really good assists and he forces a team to have Doom as its third character is the main chemistry breaker for Strider, and the team chemistry is really the main weakness of the character. A good Strider is still going to tear up Iron Man, though, and Team Clockwork is probably going to beat any team with Iron Man on it.
I’m not ready to say he belongs behind Cyclops, though. Cyclops is really good and can hold his own with Iron Man but most of the argument behind why Cyclops would be better than Iron Man is ultimately theory fighter.
I love how people are saying IM has more options than Cable when Cable’s one main option (the AHVB) practically overrides whatever “options” IM has in comparison with one simple TK motion. The damage AHVB can yield with a simple misplaced jab pales in comparison in what IM needs to do perfectly to get a leg up in a match with AAAs and Drones being spammed all over the place.
You have to be on your A-game every match to pull the same wins that the average Cable can do with just a little meter building and space control.
bh and cable counter im…we know this, but all that about doom…come on…you can not be serious.
the point is IM isn’t in the God tier…point blank period…but people must realize the fact that he has something and do something nobody else can realli do, and that is straight murk an entire team off of a hit basically, without dhc’ing until the end. no1 is saying that makes him 5th by himself. i have to believe there is no fifth best character…after you get past the obvious four, many characters are playable…including blackheart =) but that doesn’t make blackheart fifth at all, or strider/doom. because everybody you could place as #5 can be countered like hell. that is probably why people are straight on playing with #5 people. bh has hard time against magnus and storm’s hail right? strider/doom has problems with xxx/cyke. im can be countered with a blackheart/cable/xxx team. etc…btw, i dunno why i quoted you. i guess cuz u talked about the two chara’s that counter IM =) nothing personal =)
So we’ve established a couple things:
I’ve pretty much seen it all with IM. I’ve seen Julius, Combo, Illan, and Phat all pull off crazy comebacks with Iron Man. True. It happens. But how often do you see these comebacks happen compared to the number of times decent IM players have lost matches because their opponent took full advantage of the weaknesses that IM provides?
another note, I’ve played around with Strider/IM/Doom. It’s pretty fun as strider has some stuff he can do with IM AA. Tagging into IM after connecting orbs and going into an infinite is also pretty dope. I’d use that team more if I didn’t have that “Strider player syndrome” which keeps me from effectively learning other characters that take time and execution to learn (Magneto, IM, etc)
Actually, you’re all wrong. Sim is the 5th God.
bh is nowhere near unrushable, and i’ve never seen a decent ironman from the northwest. I don’t think you have much worthwhile out there to base your opinion on.
sim is crappy only because of his ground to air priority, he has nothing but a bad special to help him out…
if BH is the “most unrushable character in the game,” why is magneto still dominating the marvel scene… you have to be joking
anyways, i’m starting to think that the top tiers are all different depending on the player (shit, stilt even thinks BH is that high)…
until these top tiers consitantly win tournies, then the tiers can be set in stone like the gods
but imma have to agree with someone (i forget who) who said that there was the top 4 and then just a bunch of characters with potential. each of them has something they’re good at, and each of them have a glaring weakness
I’m going to be a nit-picky bastard and say that they don’t all necessarily have a glaring weakness; some, like Cyke, simply suffer from not being overly dominant at any one thing. I suppose you could call that in itself a glaring weakness, but really what they all suffer from is a collection of related troubles that magnify each other. The Big 4 (with the exception of Storm) have their problems too, but usually they aren’t problems that affect how the character is played.
^ yeah Cyke’s weakness is that he is too balanced, and has nothing to really make him shine besides his versatilaty, his infinite is his best damage producing combo, but getting it agianst the big four is a mission, and then actually doing it is also a mission.
i’ve always thought that cyke should be god tier.
cyke may not have one thing that he can exploit but god damn does he have everything else.
Cyke is great but I’d put him at top, close to or under Iron Man, but not God-tier.
cyc’s strength is that he has many of the god 4s basic abilities
omg…doom is SOOO not that good. IM beats his ass.
he shouldn’t be in the god-tier, but should be RIGHT AFTER. tied with cyc/spiral/strider also
After thinking about it, Cyke is the 5th best
why?
first why is storm the best of the Gods? Because she has alittle bit of everything that Sentinel/Mag/Cable have. She is very versitly.
-infinites(tri jump infinite, and standing sentinel infinite, and many more that aren’t partical…well maybe but very tough)
-Priorty - fierces both on the ground( s.hk) and air (j.hp)
-Dhc’s - hail storm is safe
-runaway/meter build - Ha ha ha ha
-amazing supers-Hail storm covers everything, Lighting storm is dhc friendly
-mobility - 8 way airdash, float, flight mode, lighting attack?
Same goes with Cyke, he does not have one particular thing that makes him a monster, but he has something from everything. agian versatility, i think that.
look at everything shout posted.
i believe in my conclusion to this topic, Just like how Storm is top of the Gods because of versility, Cyke should be top of top tiers because of versitility, so no there is no 5th God.
when deciding which is the better character, you have to look @ what makes a character good on point and team function. Strider for instance is a great and @ times can be a god like character but his team function sucks ass so he’s not thought of really highly. Only the people who’ve been rolled by strider really know what its like to be trapped to death and you just can’t do shit but try again the next game.
Okay, here’s what I’m saying regards to all these chars in the end.
BH is not unrushable, but if you put the kinds of teams around him that people put around Storm he can do a lot of the same things that Storm does defensively, only at lower risk to himself and with a lot better of a clear-out of the low ground that Storm uses to defend herself from rushdown together with drones and Commando. Jumping fierce demons, once you can throw them cleanly, will protect you for a half hour, and if you protect that position stubbornly enough BH can protect himself from Magneto just fine. With Sentinel and Commando he’s also got DHCs that hurt almost as much as Storm/Sentinel does (read: for practical purposes, you’ll kill Magnus if you land one), so he can punish Magneto mistakes just as viciously.
Magneto ultimately is still a powerful rusher because once he gets going on a tear and gets a hit and position he creates a rather horrifying slippery slope for his opponents. He has almost blinding speed, he can combo any poke just about anywhere on the lower half of the screen into either infinites or snapbacks, and he’s the only character in the game with both a long range snapback that can hit multiple characters and a practical ability to chase down the assist character and launch them to death. Even so, if you can take the near-ground position away from Magneto on a consistent basis and force him to go over the top, then many, many characters can make him look very bad. That list can include Storm/Sentinel, BH/Sentinel, Sentinel in general, Spiral, Cable, Strider, MegaMan, and even BBHood/Juggernaut combinations. At some point, yes, Magneto is better than the pixies in the game, but if you can stop him from landing a hit, just about ANYBODY can beat him.
Iron Man doesn’t have many of these strengths and he’s got all these weaknesses a lot worse. He’s slower. The smart bombs help a little bit in keeping characters from feeling too comfortable in the near-ground position that’s necessary for rushing, but at some point he still has to land a hit and he doesn’t have a whole lot of chipping power to make up for it.
I mean, set aside the love for the infinite and let’s really compare Iron Man to something like Doom/Sentinel/Cyclops. Doom has a triangle jump that’s not particularly faster or slower than Iron Man’s. His photon charges are better than Iron Man’s smart bombs for controlling space. He’s got longer ranged pokes on the ground and the air. He’s got the jumping fierce for cutting off the near ground position (although Magneto can get under it fairly easily if he’s not careful). By throwing yellow beams up in the scoreboards he can basically stay out of reach of anybody who can’t fly, airdash up, or have Commando or BH assists for ridiculous periods of time. And if you’ve got the reflexes, any poke in the air or the ground can be combo’ed into a photon array that will DHC into somebody probably getting killed, just like Storm with combos into lightning attack/lightning storm. Storm has a few things that Doom lacks in this category… but, really, Iron Man doesn’t.
In fact, if you really think about it good and hard, IM/Sent/Clops isn’t a revoltingly bad team by IM standards either. However, even the most hard-bitten IM fan can’t really give a rational argument that that team is going to be dramatically better than it would be if you took IM off of it and replaced him with Doom. They’re both teams that are going to have their strengths and might even be decent against a purely rush oriented team because they can defend themselves reasonably well and getting hit by the first character on either of them gets your first character killed and puts Sentinel on point with a lead. However, they’re both still fundamentally flawed teams because they’re going to get horribly out-turtled by Team Scrub and their first characters are slow enough that they’re still probably going to lose most rush fights to Magneto-based teams if they can’t put down an ironclad lockout, and they’ll probably also get out-turtled, out-rushed, out-everythinged by Storm/Sentinel teams.
It is not to be missed that the best Iron Man team is Mag/IM/Sentinel, where IM either never actually takes point and serves almost entirely as a DHC waypoint between IM and Sentinel, or he takes point for giggles when Magneto’s already done the hard part of his work for him, either by having already destroyed most of the opposing team or by killing someone with a DHC into IM leaving IM with a relatively easy job of guard breaking the next character where he’s under no great pressure to do so because his team’s already ahead anyway – either way, preventing Iron Man from having to chase down an opposing team by himself to win or lose a match, which he’s simply very bad at doing when the chips are down.
Cyke has too few good matchups to be considered among the top 4. Even when you put him on the best team that is built for him (Cyke/Sent/Commando), Cable and a gay Sentinel will beat him pretty clean. He does well against Magneto and decent against storm unless she has sent with her. Bottom line, he has too many “okay” matchups and not enough very good ones. Maybe if Cable didn’t exist, but Cable does exist. So I still can’t really put him up there.
Sure, Cable will beat him cleanly, but Cable beats 98% of the cast cleanly, so it’s not surprising. However, I do believe Cyke can at least pull even with Sent, 5/5, if he can’t beat him outright. I agree that he can have struggles, but I do think he has the tools to at least play against Sent.