This topic is also kinda fucked up because of the way a team is built.
strider is a meter hog on a team that doesn’t truly help each other out(sent/doom sucks man), strider is alright on his own, nothing scary, he needs helpers
spiral is completely functional and fills the role of meter builder almost perfectly w cable/sent, her assist is alright for the team. she needs helpers too
ironman is good on certain teams, esp with good aaa and chipping/lockdown assist, decent helper too, but like re-mix said he needs helpers.
doom teams are pretty shitty, but the role that he can play mid-game or end-game can be pretty good, his guardcancelXXphoton in your grill is nasty. his runaway is useful, his dhcs are too good and so on
…but he doesn’t have teams built for him.
that takes me to my main point,
how can we argue that xx is better than xx when you don’t give a char their best helper
example
cyc/dones with no aaa vs strider w his ideal assists
the match-ups change everytime you modify somones helper and you get nowhere in the discussion.
I like looking at how good somone is overall as a character and on a team.
cyc imo is 5th best for his point game and his contributions to a team.
over all it’s not worth trying to say a character is better than another because 2 characters can have completely different games.
Ironman’s style is not the same as Striders
so comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges, it just isn’t working out.
as far as who the 5th best is in the game, it’s a hard choice. All of the upper mids, Cyc, Doom, Spiral, Stider, IM, Bh?, are all characters that have different game plans than others.
Imo it’s hard to say which character is better than another because marvel is a team based game, you can’t talk about how good 1 character is, Marvel is not XVSF. you have to throw in the characters over all best assists and compare the match ups
Imo Marvel is too team based that tiers will get wrecked if you tired to base them only on 1 character instead of the teams, the God characters are easier to understand, but the Upper mids get tough to debate on.Probabley cause we don’t use them as much…(im a Tier whore).
I always see it like that. Which is why I hate when people talk about solo characters. It sucks like that. Except when you’re talking about Sentinel, he doesn’t need assists You have to think in team dynamics. Just like mix up said, Strider/Doom is one of the best duos, but Sentinel/Doom is one of the worst duos. Although I don’t think Sentinel/Doom is that bad, you just have to use it a bit differently (Normal Jump Sentinel). It’s the only way you can go about judging certain characters.
Most everyone always looks at IM’s strengths and never really focuses on his weaknesses.
His main weakness is the lack of a safe super to me. He is a terrible assist punisher and assist protection/punishing is a very high priority in marvel. Storm wins games off of hail protects/baits all the time. IM can’t play that game. Someone spams their assist on IM and he really can’t do much to punish their spammery. He can’t protect a bad assist call with major damage really, just throw smart bombs and hope for the best. Anyone with cap will counter call his assist and not even give 2 shits about what’s gonna happen to his cap. This all dwindles down to proton cannon. Since his super sucks and is not safe, he can’t use it to punish/protect, plus it means you can’t bring him in safely or get him out safely in the air cause it’s ground only.
The fact that IM struggles against such a simple strat as fly up back and call commando or lk/pan anytime IM comes close enough should be a big sign that this guy has issues.
Mag sort of has the same issues but more than makes up for it with the best ground dashes in the game (wolv/cammy backdashes not as good) and his airdashing of course. Also has the dreaded double snap, snap off pretty much any hit to ruin chemistry, and some tricks with tempest and other junk to punish assists.
The only viable team with IM I see and I believe tourney results would agree with me is combofiend. The team plays to IMs strengths, Mag has all of his gimmicks and does all the dirty work. No better char really to take advantage of the proton cannon DHC than magnus. Pick and choose the times you want to use IM AAA, and leave a character dead with IM on point to GB the next when he didn’t get the hit himself. Also the proton cannon to HSF DHC is godlike and it’s there.
Anyway to me IM is too flawed to be considered god tier, but he’s still really good at what he does so he’s top.
I see alot of opinions but is there any criteria to base what makes a top tier? if character potential regardless of difficulty is a factor, strider would be easily better than IM for the simple fact that its impossible to play 100% strider. He’s not one hit kill so his gameplan ricks are always going to constantly evolve and add to his gameplay. He’ll always get better as a character as long as the game is around or till someone figures out everything that the little ninja has.
Well since this is a team game assists can make up for character weaknesses and make characters better. Which is why i say IM is top 4, as far as him losing to fly up back + cap what character doesnt have trouble against that? Thats Top 3 best duos in the game if not the best… Since he has assist he can fight that, I think that IM with Cap or Cyke would cause Sent lots of problems. A good overall IM team would be IM/Sent/Cap but noone uses that so noone will know how good it is…:shake:
does it make him better or worse than cyclops considering he’s forced to use his helper to get into advantageous posistions?
is he better than cyc because he has better offense when he uses his helper properly? We’re also talkin about how he is forced to cover his assist. Cyc does this easily while ironman has 0 dmg options from far range.
cyc still gets basic shit no matter what the situation is. ironman can’t hurt the helpers so his gameplan is completely limited in some ways when you’re comparing characters.
standalone characters that can still fight vs duo’s and entire teams
sent
storm
magneto
cyclops
cammy
I think that might be a decent side of the actual issue to discuss.
ps. anyone who said wtf at the cammy comment, go fight wongs cammy. i don’t care if she’s first on the team or the last. she’s too good at the basics to stop her even when she’s on her own.
edit: i gotta give some credit to ironguy, in close, if he has doom and gets a launch+doom on somones helper, he can really go to town and still set-up a counter hit. thats all he’s got .
Well as long as you stay in the air the most cyke can do is out-prioritize you with fierces and roundhouses as opposed to IM out-prioritizing you and doing his air to ground infinite. As far as assist punishment goes like i said i think IM/sent/cap is a solid team. Since you can punish with it, something as simple as call cap, cap knocks them in the air then sj jab, fierce, unfly fierce hurts. I dont play IM like that and i can come up wit simple, hurtful shit. Just gotta use your imagination…
Edit: Merdoc i will whoop that ass nukka, come see me… lol
Edit: Just realized Mixup i heard you were suppose to come to FR, what happen dog? I wanted to get some games in wit you…
and again, marvel is a team based game. 1v1 scenarios is hardly playing marvel since 99% of the time someone is going to have an assist. Its always going to boil down to team function and what a character can do to be effective.
Not just one on one. Doom has the better assist(AA), has a better launcher, and he can rain down death from above on other characters a lot better than IM can.
IM only has the smart bombs when attacking characters down below, Doom has the lasers and super lasers which are far more effective.
Doom is like the male equivalent of storm. Nice rush-down ability, good runaway, Good air combos, assists, can punish well, and projectiles.
Doom lacks damage, he can run do all the stuff you mentioned, but it’s hard to a play a character that good, for so long, for so little damage compared to the others.
there is no fifth God
there are 4 Gods, and a bunch of other characters with potential.
I agree. I see him as REALLY good. definitely top tier… dunno about god-tier though. he’s Damn close, and I think everybody can agree on that. If he had a faster dash, or moved a bit faster… that would make him so much better.
your right about dhalsim too. after watching magnetro’s HUGE dhalsim tutorial guide (DVD), it has inspired me. He truely is a underrated character.
he has more resets then storm… possibily even magneto!
he has the MOST unfly options and combos. more then ironman and sentinel!
TONS of air-to-ground combos… both midscreen and in the corner
has a semi infinite
is the Best run away character (better then storm) (he can actually stay up there Forever, literally).
has a FAST air dash, and ground dash (although a bit short)
has a 8 way air dash
yup. sorry i got off topic. i know this thread is suppose to be about ironman, heh.
Wow, Didnt realize there is so much Ironman talk! If any of you play ironman and are going to evo vegas, try to find if me if you can because I am intrested in playing agsinst different IM styles.
You have to think in team dynamics. Just like mix up said, Strider/Doom is one of the best duos, but Sentinel/Doom is one of the worst duos. Although I don’t think Sentinel/Doom is that bad, you just have to use it a bit differently (Normal Jump Sentinel). It’s the only way you can go about judging certain characters.