TKD is a sport designed for a ring. It only ranks so low because of its rules.
Karate ranks low when you look at things like Shotokan or WKF style kumite
Full contact styles like Kyokushin are up there with Muay Thai. They proved their worth in K1 and Pride.
Kickboxers often use Thai-style striking, but this can include things like Dutch Kickboxing, American kickboxing (which had throws) or Savate. I used it as a catchall for any other comprehensive standup style, I should have clarified.
From my experience boxers that also knows wing chun eats standard boxers alive
If you think that guy was fighting like he was point sparring then you’re an idiot.
You don’t need to learn TKD to fight like that and as I’ve said many times his kicking was extremely slow. If he went up against a competent Muay Thai fighter or boxer then he could have been the one who died that day. Lucky for him he was fighting an extremely stiff bodybuilder with zero mobility, reflexes or fighting experience.
Nothing in Muay Thai was imported from TKD or Karate.
TKD hasn’t perfected any type of kick to the point that it’s delivered more proficiently in TKD than in Muay Thai, and it’s not called a TKD kick.
I don’t need to train it because everything in Sanda and more can be learned in MMA which is what I do alongside boxing. Secondly these are only a number of ways to CORRECTLY throw or grapple someone. The same goes with kicking and punching CORRECTLY. There’s a Sanda school just a mile from where I live but the facilities and sparring partners just don’t cut it for me but I will train in it seriously at some point.
There are NO Kungfu/Wushu styles in Sanda. Sanda is a set of rules that eliminates the ground game. It’s pretty much Muay Thai, with Judo throws and sprawling.
That’s not what we’re arguing about. We all know what Sambo is, and it also has strikes.
Muay Thai is a far better accessory than TKD for self defense. MMA is also littered with people who started with or cross trained in Wing Chun so I don’t see your point… When you adequately explain why TKD is better than Muay that as a self defence then I’ll take you seriously.
If we took away the boxing strikes from Mauy Thai you’ll notice that the kicks alone in Muay Thai are still more efficient than the “specialist” kicks in TKD. I seem to be repeating myself and it’s getting annoying.
Weapons as in what exactly? if you mean guns then simply carry one everywhere if you need to, it only takes a minute to learn how to use one. You live in the states, I don’t… I live in Europe. As a self defense MMA is far more effective than Kunfu or TKD will ever be. You can’t even deny this and that’s why you now claim that MMA is ineffective because it doesn’t teach weapons fighting, you just have to one-up MMA somehow and you can’t do it through the martial art you compete in, lol.
Fighting is inherently violent, claiming that MMA is just a bloodsport is fucking dumb.
Regarding the bouncer fight, is it just me or does it seem as if the 150 lb Soy Boys are the ones who always want to tussle with bouncers after a couple of drinks?
You guys probably wondered if I did any martial arts after seeing my countless knockout videos on World Star. The answer is no, I don’t know any forms of martial arts. I just know how to sucker punch and run when I’m about to lose.
Spinning kicks basically were. Spinning kicks were met with disdain in early MMA for a good reason - because all the Thai boxers were shit talking them.
Pretty much every spinning, or side kick is delivered better in TKD than Muay Thai. Muay Thai rules the roundhouse and teep game, but that’s it.
I never said there were wushu styles in Sanda.
Sport sambo does not have strikes. That’s about as correct as saying Olympic TKD allows head punches.
I never claimed TKD was better than Muay Thai for self-defense. If you took hands out of Muay Thai, you’d be left with a roundhouse and a push kick, which are both TKD staples. The only kick Thai does better, is the roundhouse, and even that is now becoming debatable in MMA.
[quote]
Weapons as in what exactly? if you mean guns then simply carry one everywhere if you need to, it only takes a minute to learn how to use one. You live in the states, I don’t… I live in Europe. As a self defense MMA is far more effective than Kunfu or TKD will ever be. You can’t even deny this and that’s why you now claim that MMA is ineffective because it doesn’t teach weapons fighting, you just have to one-up MMA somehow and you can’t do it through the martial art you compete in, lol.
Fighting is inherently violent, claiming that MMA is just a bloodsport is fucking dumb.
[/quote]Weapons. Knives. Clubs. Sticks. Weapons of opportunity.
i.e. Weapons.
MMA doesn’t teach you how to deal with the realities of weapons, situational awareness, or how to roll with someone trying to stab you. There are many other “needs” other than bare-handed fighting that MMA does not address.
It’s a bit silly for me to say Kung Fu isn’t good for self-defense, given I train it and use it in Sanda training. “Kung Fu” is a meaningless term, you’re going to need to be more specific about styles when talking about Chinese stuff.
I don’t live in the States, and I never claimed MMA was ineffective.
Again, nothing in Muay Thai was imported from TKD or Karate.
Muay Thai fighters knock out TKD fighters with spinning kicks all the time.
You’re intentionally ignoring the fact that I also said Kungfu which is what you said, because you now realise that Sanda does not use kungfu techniques because you can’t name any. I added Wushu to broaden the fact that no Chinese martial art is used in Sanda.
I’m starting to understand why people can’t stand you. Who said anything about “Sport” Sambo, this is not the argument and stop adding additional arguments to the conversation.
I already said that if you take the kicks away from Muay Thai it’s still superior to TKD even when specialising for just kicks.
Again, nothing in Muay Thai was taken from TKD. Move on…
LOL… So I really need weapons training to know how to stab someone, or wack someone over the head with a fucking stick. The most effective way to overcome someone with knife is to run.
It does and this just proves how stupid you are. TKD, Kungfu or any other BS martial art you can pull out of your ass does not teach weapon disarming anywhere near as effectively as BJJ does. Regardless weapon disarming should be a last resort if you can’t run away.
Very unlikely that you train in Sanda if you think it uses kunfu techniques. You can’t even name the Kungfu styles used in Sanda. I even doubt that you’ve ever been in a street fight.
quoting my post for posterity and for sheer awesomeness. ty
Spinning kicks arent native to Muay Thai. They’re not considered Thai kicks.
And TKD does it more.
Da geuk? Chang geuk? Tsop choy? Sao choy? Jong sut? Dip jeung? Poon kiu? Lah kiu?
Do you even know what these terms are?
Wushu and Kung Fu are interchangeable terms.
[quote]
I’m starting to understand why people can’t stand you. Who said anything about “Sport” Sambo, this is not the argument and stop adding additional arguments to the conversation.
[/quote]I said Sport Sambo. Combat sambo is just old school jiu-jutsu.
Except Muay Thai’s kicks aren’t superior to TKDs. Not anymore now that TKDers are gravitating to MMA.
Stabbing or clubbing people is easy. Defending against is not, and MMA teaches you nothing about it.
Keep reaching.
BJJ doesnt teach disarms. It’s a grappling sport.
Sanda does not use Kung Fu. You can train Sanda without learning Kung Fu.
But, people who train Kung Fu do try and use their techniques in a competitive setting such as Sanda.
Spinning kicks have been with Muay Thai since the start. Muay Thai borrowed nothing from TKD.
The fact that TKD fighters spin more means nothing. Ballet dancers spin more than TKD fighters. Doesn’t mean ballet is effective for combat. Muay Thai fighters destroy TKD fighters in real fights.
These are bogus forms of Kunfu that are not used in Sanda. It’s funny but not surprising that someone like you is still in denial that MMA has exposed Kungfu plenty of times, even in China.
LOL… You’ve already forgotten your original argument when you said MMA wasn’t effective because it doesn’t teach weapon fighting? My point was it doesn’t need to. Anyone with half a brain knows how to use a knife or club someone over the head.
You’re still dumb because BJJ does teach ways to defend against weapons, and it does it more effectively than the bogus martial arts that you practice.
You’re an idiot for claiming that I siad Sport Sambo when I did not. LOL, Jui-Juitsu doesn’t involve strikes. Stop talking about things you know nothing.
LOL…
LOL, THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING. Now I know you’re trolling me. I’ve picked apart every single one of your arguments and you didn’t even notice, and now you’re going against pretty much everything you’ve claimed.
You do know that people who train kungfu also try to use their techniques in competitives MMA matches but also fail miserably, them using it in Sanda is just as pointless because it’s not effective in either sport. That’s pretty much the end of this pointless discussion.
It took a while for TKD to realise they had to step up and experiment in other rulesets, yes.
Im very certain I already established that TKD by itself is bottom-tier striking.
Those aren’t the names of styles. You asked for kung fu techniques used in Sanda and I gave them to you.
Now I know for sure you have absolutely no clue about Chinese styles.
That wasn’t my original argument, at all and I dare you to prove otherwise.
Except it doesn’t.
Classical jiu-jitsu doesn’t teach strikes?
So…Rener is just showing you classical jiu-jitsu.
I haven’t altered my claims at all. I said from the start that Sanda is a standalone sport independent of tradtitional kung fu.
Indeed they do. Not really different to any other purist who got wrecked by BJJ in the old days.
Everyone has to cross train.
Every technique I listed above are Sanda staples, and I’ve got at least 10 more I can name too. Not my fault you don’t know what they are.
There are no Sanda matches where kungfu is effectively used. You couldn’t name ANY kungfu techniques used in Sanda and that’s why you eventually ADMITTED that Sanda didn’t even use kungfu. This discussion is dead, you can’t back-peddle now, haha.
All BJJ classes teach weapon disarms. You know absolutely nothing about BJJ or fighting in general.
You’re completely clueless about effective martial arts and the way you contradict yourself is fucking hilarious.
Except I just did.
Da geuk - front kick, both snap and pushing
Chang geuk - side kick, all heights
Tsop choy - power jab
Sao choy - looping overhand
Jong sut - straight / upward knee
Dip jeung - two handed kick catch
Poon kiu - outward kick parry
Lah kiu - inward kick parry / drag
Its all there, all found in traditional styles and forms. Happy to point them out for you. Sanda simply didn’t take them from kung fu.
I’ve already asked you to point out my contradictons and you’ve failed to do so.
LOL… Sorry but the Mandarin or Cantonese translation for Kickboxing/Muay Thai and Boxing attacks are not kungfu specific moves, nice try though… Just move on.
LOL
So as kid i did tkd, wrestling, boxing, and kali/arnes
My tkd coach was also pee wee wrestling coach. And his brother in law was the kali instructor. And the boxing coach was russian. All of them were cops. I would have training fighting multiple people, disarming, getting out of the situation, situational awareness etc
Cross training was a big part of my upbringing as a martial artist
I will judge wing chun as bs because it is a shit system that bruce lee changed up to incorporate other stand up techniques
Blah.
I think there are weak and strong points to everything.
I just think grappling is essential.
Muay Thai has improved my grappling 10 fold
Never said they were specific. But hey, I guess boxing invented all punching by your logic.
You realise that kung fu predates modern boxing, right? Hell, some style even predate the old 16th century boxing from London.
In doing so, you missed the entire point, which is that Chinese styles have all the same stuff you find elsewhere.
It’s not a matter of techniques, but how those techniques are trained. The techniques are nothing special and mostly not unique, but most kung fu schools are notorious for not pressure testing even the most basic stuff, like their push kicks/da geuk, etc.
What part of that is wrong or contradictory? Still waiting.
I did TKD and Muay Thai as a kid. Taught TKD for a few years. Granddad was a boxer.
Everyone needs to cross-train. This was true even in the days of the old lei tai fights, which Sanda is basically trying to resurrect as a sport. People trained striking, shuai jiao/grappling/wrestling, etc, as OG lei tai was completely no-rules. It even had weapons up to a certain period in history.
The whole single-style shit didn’t really happen until martial arts came to the West in the 50s or whenever.
WC is definitely shit house. Always agreed with that. It was never something intended for fighting or lei tai. Like, it has some useful things like oblique kicks and elbows but it’s too focused on drills and pushing centreline no matter what. Full of people who don’t want to experiment or fight outside their school, too.
Same with my Sanda.
You’ve already pointed out that kunfu isn’t used in Sanda, but now you’re trying to save face by back-peddling like a clown. Of course it isn’t used because it’s not effective. You still can’t name any Kungfu styles or techniques used in Sanda without lying, which is why YOU SAID,“Sanda does not use Kung Fu. You can train Sanda without learning Kung Fu”’.
You also can’t provide video evidence of these kungfu techniques being used in Sanda which would have ended the discussion immediately. “Trying” to translate the words kick or punch into the Chinese language does not make kicking and punching the property of Chinese Kungfu, especially when the technique of the punches and kicks being used in Sanda are from Muay Thai and boxing.
The punching bags, speedballs and Mitts used in Sanda were never present in Chinese Kungfu. Sanda incorporated these things from western boxing and Muay Thai. Which is why they wear boxing gloves, headgear and even MUAY THAI shorts in Sanda competitions, lol, not kungfu apparel.
If you keep responding to me on this dead argument I’m going to continue asking to provide conclusive proof explaining the kungfu techniques that you claim are used in Sanda. I doubt you even do Sanda. Provide us links that explain and show us Kungfu techniques used in Sanda. Do not translate boxing, kickboxing or Muay Thai attacks into Madarin/Cantonese and claim that we’re not aware of these ancient chinese kungfu techniques. Literally claiming that a power punch, jab or even a knees are Kungfu specific moves is dumb when they’re far more commonly used and to a much more devastating effect in boxing and Muay Thai.
Kungfu pre-dating boxing means absolutely nothing because its still far less effective as a martial than boxing. Striking and even blocking in Kungfu is nowhere near as effective as it is in boxing which is why we see boxing techniques and training methods used in Sanda and NOT kungfu techniques. Put a kungfu fighter up against a competent boxer and that Kungfu specialist will be sleeping within a minute.
Granted, I don’t have experience with kung fu, but I think chinese martial arts have a similar problem as karate (and karate was influenced by kung fu, so…).
Originally neither kung fu styles nor karate were developed for competition, but either for self defense or to be used in war. Once you try to fit them into a competition, you are adding gloves - and once you bring the gloves you throw out of the window a lot of techniques: all the open palm strikes from karate (shuto, haito, teisho, etc) are gone, and I believe kung fu has even more open palm techniques. Same for all the parring/blocking techniques - once you have the gloves, it’s easier to use traditional boxing methods (shelling, etc) so all the uke waza blocks are gone, too. A lot of the moves from karate or kung fu does not fit in a gloved enviroment.
Another thing I observed is that many moves are similar, so it’s hard to say a particular technique is originally from karate, boxing kung fu, etc. Just an example, I wante to learn how punches are done in boxing, so I watched a couple of tutorial about doing a right cross. To my big surprise, I discovered that the right cross is basically karate’s gyaku tsuki - they are virtually the same move, same principles applied, the only major difference being how you keep the opposite hand. But the punch in itself is the same. So, whenever you see a right cross thrown in mma, do you see a boxing or a karate technique ? question is pretty silly, same technique, just using it’s western (right cross) or eastern (gyaku tsuki) name.