I didn’t get promised shit for my black belts.
Again, tell me why 4 years is so short for a striking system? Because that was your original problem.
there is too much to learn well in that short of a span. Especially since most aren’t in it 100% going for high level competitions. As well as this four year rule is applied to kids and adults the same…you cant do that. Kids arent even done developing, its very rare i meet a kid who is really strong enough to protect themselves and deserves to be a black belt as a teen. i’d say only 20% and those kids are the ones competing at tournaments so they have a different training and mindset. personally no kid should be a black belt until 18 or they can legit hold their own against an adult. bjj doesnt do black belts for kids for the most part. The way tkd is set up, im more likely to find a kid in wrestling who could protect themselves and fuck up an adult than in tkd…or traditional martial arts in general.
Now as an adult…its less bout strength and more about the time they put in. Most are taking it to learn self defense but they dont have the same amount of time a kid does. They cant live at the dojo, also they have this mindset of they deserve the belts in that timed fashion. maybe you didnt get promised a black belt…but ive been around this industry my whole life and i constantly see it as a buisness tool. it fucks everything up and the proper development of a person because they believe they deserve it after 4 years even if they truly dont.
its hard for me to convey all my thoughts on this atm. but basics are kids shouldnt be black belts until they can defend themselves and adults expect it in 4 years no matter what.
We only move up in bjj by placing in tournaments and time in
That is how a 4 year dude can stay white. Or a dude doing nogi
It is funny when we get purples who have really shitty top and guard game
Bullshit. The basics of striking (let alone TKD) are not that complicated to teach or become competent at. That’s all a 1st Dan is, and that’s why there’s 8 or 9 other degrees after it. A black belt in BJJ is about the same time for a 2nd Dan in a good TKD school.
Depends on the school, and it’s not even a rule. If you consistently improve and grade at every opportunity, you can do it in 3 to 4 years. It’s not a promise, it’s just math.
Many schools have junior black belt ranks for this reason. They’re not deemed on the same rank as an adult for the exact reasons you state.
4 years of pretty much ANY grappling will be superior to 4 years of striking - TKD or not.
Kids don’t live at the dojo, they’re at school most of the day.
Age of entitlement, yes. From what I can tell, this is mostly a US thing, though. I haven’t heard too much of the belt factories elsewhere.
You’re only going to expect a belt if you’re promised it - which comes down to the school and the instructor.
you asked for my opinions and what ive seen and are arguing that these things dont exist. you cant say that, they do exist as an industry.
.kids living at a dojo means they train and teach…they get home from school and are at the dojo from 3-8 helping out.
.no id put 2-3 years of grappling against alot of 4 year black belts.
.not all schools do junior black belts…alot of schools who do have it, if say you start at 5…you have the lil dragons program which generally runs 5-8/9…then you go through the junior belt system…10-13…junior bb 13-16. some schools offer programs to skip belts some dont. but you will constantly see alot of black belts under 16 still.
…age of entitlement is a westerner thing not a us thing
Sometimes, yes, it works. Now let’s think of how many times we see spinning kicks/flip-kicks in fights.
Again, how often do we see spinning attacks? Once or twice a fight, if that?
I agree with that they can be good to have, but personally, I wouldn’t use any spinning attacks at all. The shortest distance traveled in regards to fighting will always be a straight line.
Also, the principle in Wing Chun is the feel. More on that below.
Not sure if you’re hinting at your own skills here in regards to “shitty punches”.
A punch is a punch. There isn’t really a “Wing Chun” punch. Wing Chun is simple, which is excellent.
The main thing in traditional “non-combat” Wing Chun (which is what I think you may be going at) is learning to “feel” your opponent by being one step behind. It is about the counter, and locking bodyparts.
If you’re good at feeling, you can fight blindfolded, feeling the opponent’s movements.
Sounds like bunk, but I’ve seen it many times and done it myself many times. While it looks soft, perhaps sloppy/funny and has a pleasant start, what you’re doing is developing an understanding of the psychological thinking of the opponent. - The more you do blindfolded, the greater your instinct becomes as seen below.
Why blindfolded?
Seeing and reacting may at times simply take too long.
The issue with the traditional, “non-combat” one, is that it is very static, hence why it is not very suitable for combat.
As for the flexible, combat one, the only difference here is that one actually lets loose and moves around. It now is about annihilating the opponent and where the instinct developed comes in.
There is a reason for why Wing Chun is considered by some as “the most brutal”.
In a flexible combat form it is up-close (bye TKD), no bullshit, straight forward, ruthless, and full-force.
Wing Chun takes the good parts from other “styles” and throws out the flashy crap, basically. It is about what is practical, what works, and most importantly, is safe.
A key-point to make however is that in daily life, you won’t have a fight where people stand 5 feet away kicking at eachother for extended periods of time, and sadly, I can attest to this as I’ve been in fights myself, which I take no pride in. Don’t fight. Walk away at first.
Anyway, it likely will start with a push, which will eventually lead to being up-close, and I’d say that it is likely that most don’t know what to actually do up-close. So, they’ll panic, flail around, push some more and try to get away, but now you’re not getting away, this is my territory, and this is where you will fall. You can search real fights on youtube, or get into one on your own to get a grasp on what is likely and you will see what I mean.
Yeah i am going to need you to sit down
Wing chun is shit
There is also close combat in tkd. There are punches and there are blocks, and of course evasion and head movement
But wing chun is shit in real situation or if you go into it with somebody cutting angles
I just cannot take it seriously as somebody who trains the concepts of wing chun just make you a shitty puncher and you only go forward
It looks lame and it is lame
Ip man is some bullshit
You assume a person won’t create distance.
But really this is turning into ufc 1 territory. Wing chun is a shitty fighting system
A good chinese fighting system is sansho
It’s a high-risk, high-reward technique. There’s a reason why it’s not the mainstay of a fighting style (no, not even TKD). You keep talking about flip kicks, yet neither main style of TKD teaches them for self-defense - they’re pretty unanimously a demonstration technique, as they should be.
Because a) it’s high-risk, and b) if it works, people tend to drop.
As far as spinning kicks go, they’re a ring technique. Spinning hands are excellent if you find yourself being spun or ganged up on.
And if I’m not on that line, or that line is blocked, you’ll need to go around with something circular, or you’ll need to move.
Wing Chun was created by a woman, so that she could buy herself time to get away.
It was always about annihilating the opponent, but at some point that shit was lost.
Only people who train Wing Chun think that (as do many traditional stylists about their own systems). Old Kung Fu masters were multi-disciplined and trained multiple styles. That mentality fell apart when martial arts became modernised and is only recently coming back.
Modern TKD was never intended to be an in-close sport. Traditional TKD is adapted from Shotokan.
Wing Chun doesn’t take anything from other styles, since it predates many Chinese styles and therefore all modern martial arts. I will however agree that Chinese systems traditionally are mostly about the hands, at least in a lot of the Southern stuff. The kicks are mostly linear, which is why Sanshou loves side kicks so much.
Fights start in close, which is the domain of Thai fighters nowadays. Wing Chun trains to GET in close, and fails.
Fights start at the longest striking ranges thanks to the push, and until the clinch happens, this is the domain of long-fist styles like boxing, MT or hardcore traditional stuff.
I think the issue with Wing Chun is that no one fights that way. I’ve never been in a fight where my arms and the arms of the person fighting me were entangled like wet noodles.
Wing Chun is usually the one trying to do the tangling. Once you land the punch though, you end up starting again or just chasing people down.
To their credit, good WC teachers know this, but overall the system is still pretty lacking since it focuses so much on centerline.
Also - like many Chinese styles…it has weapons training. I have to concede this one - we DON’T spend all of our time on unarmed stuff. That’s partly why ring sports dominate…they’re sports; they dedicate 100% of their time to being unarmed.
Wing Chun has its situations, its application strengthens the transitions from boxing range to grappling if you know what your doing. It’s disguised though, you’ll rarely see the forms, it will mainly teach you to see shapes reliably
I’m not sure many of you are at a high standard in full contact mixed martial arts. This sounds like a sports discussion (boxing gloves/rules)
Why do you think that ? I never did any grappling, but as an outsider, I always thought striking should be superior. It’s easier, safer and more powerful. I mean, as a grappler you need to get close, grab a limb/ atempt a take down, go for a submission then idk, twist his arm, punch him in the face or something. In the mean time, as a striker, you only need to land one powerful blow and it is lights out (and you don’t need to get too close).
Watch ufc 1
Look at how easy ken shamrock and royce gracie takeout a striker
The wrestler/grappler will close distance and switch levels.
Grappling is better than striking. Muay thai is all about the clinch and using trips.
You get great in the clinch it sets up different throws.
Striking is fun. It is great. But in a situation i would rather have better grappling than striking.
Grappling is harder to master, and if you go against a guy who wrestled you will be taken down and stretched.
Also you chose a gym that does not allow contact. Fuck off with that.
It is more beneficial to learn things that keep you safe and in shape.
Grappling is superior to striking, but both are hard to really get good at.
I would rather fight a boxer than a wrestler. Because i could throw a calf kick and fuck his month up.
A wrestler will get you down before you know what is going on.
We are getting into a weird area of noobs saying really dumb “my art is better than yours”
I would take Aleksandr Kraelin over Mike Tyson in a fight
That’s the traditional way, which I myself find very lacking as it is too static. The flexible move-around way is way more suitable for actual fights as it then is to-the-point. What you saw were people training in the traditional way. As for the entanglement, that is likely to happen in a fight as there will be contact, but it doesn’t have to.
…You’re too focused on “styles”. Wing Chun has elbowing and kneeing as well. It isn’t about what “style” is suited. What “style” is kneeing? What “style” is headbutting? Forget about “styles”. Wing Chun discards what is considered detrimental and hazardous to the practitioner. If it is practical, we do it no matter what it is. Kneeing, clawing, breaking limbs, crushing testicles, locking limbs. Throat/clavicle/eye-gouging. We say fuck off to what is impractical. Forget “style”.
[quote=“IAmYagami, post:874, topic:131577”]
…You’re too focused on “styles”. Wing Chun has elbowing and kneeing as well. It isn’t about what “style” is suited. What “style” is kneeing? What “style” is headbutting? Forget about “styles”. Wing Chun discards what is considered detrimental and hazardous to the practitioner. Kneeing, clawing, breaking limbs, crushing testicles, locking limbs. Also… throat, clavicle, and eye-gouging. If it is practical, we do it and say fuck off to what is impractical. Forget “style”.
[/quote]Fuck Bruce Lee. The Greeks did MMA first, and the Chinese had Lei Tai before it got banned in the 20s. The whole “take what is useful, discard what is not” existed before you, I, or he were twinkles in our father’s eyes.
You are the one who claimed Wing Chun borrows from other styles…when it’s been around since the 1600s and therefore is older than most styles.
[quote=“Wasted, post:875, topic:131577”]
I said that Wing Chun borrowed from other “styles”, yes. The flexible form isn’t a crystalization.
Lol, I’m gonna rustle everyone’s feathers. Wing Chun is really effective. It takes a lot of practice and finding a good school with the proper lineage requires a great amount of luck.
I had my qualms about why a lot of Wing Chun fighters aren’t effective… Until I realized you could say the same about Muay Thai or BJJ. You can find many people in a Muay Thai gym who don’t fully turn their hips when they kick or plenty of people with crappy guard games in BJJ in the same way you can a lot more crappy Wing Chun guys. That being said, I think Wing Chun is as esoteric as it gets; and like Karate and TKD, there’s a lot of Bullshido and McDojo schools out there. I think most martial arts can be effective, it just depends on the practitioner.
TKD can be reallyl effective as well. My friend did TKD a long time ago. He still got it. When he does TKD, he kicks with the foot and just slaps the target to get the point; but when he kicks the heavy back, he kicks with the shin, fully torques his hips and kicks with his shin, “through” the bag. He’s also good at those side kicks to keep the opponent in his favorable range.
Chi Sao is only a drill to develop certain principles of Wing Chun. It’s akin to squatting and running. You don’t squat when you run, but it helps with your speed. Wing Chun is for a smaller shorter person and so, the WC person would be a close quarter range relative to his opponent. The opponent will feel weird, and crammed.
I didn’t read the rest of the thread, just saw a lot of diatribe. OMG muh style is better than your style hurr duddr HOkuto Shinken fite me irl lalalala douchebag vs. B-Tequila Tier EX Alpha THird impact
…there’s a reason why Bruce Lee discarded a lot of his wing chun and followed only it’s principles.
Wing Chun is great if you ever find yourself fighting someone whilst stuck in a phone booth.
Wrestling is the best martial art
Wrestling is the best art till your both on the floor or in boxing range.
Isn’t it obvious now that its the fighter not the art. The art only matters either when rules support its dynamics or when the fighters intelligence is mismatched
Oh but I do have to mention that wrestling is way way more useful than martial artists realize