On recovery or what? Can you not use the EX-followup to hit them as they charge towards you?
Just about everyone has trouble with Abel when he’s in close except for maybe another grappler. That’s his power. I know it’s harder than it sounds, but you have to keep him out.
I play that matchup super, super lame. Like timeout victory lame. Then again I don’t win tourneys.
Yeah, on recovery. DR’s recovery is deceptively long.
M.Bison
vs
Abel- 5.5 Abel
Disagree, mad superior footsies to keep him out of grapple range, and ex psycho/teleport/EX DR to get out of mixup puts this 5.5 to bison.
Adon- 5/5
ChunLi- 5.5 Dic
This i really disagree with. Chun still gives us trouble the same way she did in vanilla. Till we have U2, we can’t stop her from hiding behind kikoken, she can jab us out of scissors, command crossup still stuffs EX Psycho, st. mp can beat a lot of our stuff and its faster now, df. lk antiair gives her another antiair option against our already floaty jumpin, and kikosho just adds a cherry to the shit cake of last game. 6-4 Chun
Fuerte- 5.5 Dic
I think this is dead even. We don’t like fuerte cuz he makes wakeup a bother with OS, his U2 is stupid, and his EX run is a great way to get through scissors. He hates us cuz of teleport escapes, scissors pressure once we get in, and hardkick.
Honda- 6-4 Honda
There’s no way. We can outlame honda too easily. just the fact that scissors is safe when non-EX headbutt is not puts is pretty big in our favor. And without charge, he can’t chase teleport on our wakeup. Our crossup being gdlk also bothers him because he has to auto correct if he doesn’t want to get in a blockstring for chip or throw mixup. Also, our jump arc makes him antiairing with jesus chop really hard. I think this is 6-4 Bison
Makoto- 6/4 Dic
Nah, mak is better than people give her credit for. Her mixups destroy us when we don’t have meter to EX Psycho out. That said, i understand your reasons for giving your rating. I only disagree slightly, 5.5 Dic
T. Hawk 5/5
No way, we can punish condor dive so free, he can be very easily safejumped, and he has a lot of trouble getting through HK. 6-4 Dic
These are the ones i disagree with
Heres the thing about abel, yes he can punish our 5 mixup escape options: EX DR, EX PC, backdash, teleport, jump. But the issue is that since we have so many options, he has to guess which one. And yes, good abels don’t roll willy nilly, but it’s because they respect our footsies, and let’s not forget he can’t antiair us too well.
I stand by 5.5 Dic
I dont think its really in Bisons favour, but definitely not 6-4 abel. Yes, smart abels dont roll, but thats a GOOD THING. We take that element away from him. Sure he can punish alot of our stuff, but he has to guess right to do it. And yet again, on knockdown, he’s in trouble vs Dic. Bisons footsies give him an advantage in this match
Chun Li definitely has to tools to make Bison cry
Yet again, this isn’t in Fuerte’s advantage, unless he gets knock down in which case you are gonna likely take a bit of damage until you guess right. But a lot of Bisons tools fuck over Fuerte
Honda is a powerhouse against Bison, unless you get health lead, in which case you just play smart and SIT THE FUCK BACK AND TURTLE
Man, I have only fought like 3 Makoto’s EVER
dunno the Hawk matchup enough, but he has the ability to pretty much kill you with ultra if he’s done even a little bit of damage to you in a round. I’ve seen Hawk dominated then BAM one mistake by you and you’re done
HEAVILY disagree here. Honda is the king of lameness. I think lp Headbutt is safe, but even if it isn’t, one blocked headbutt = like 3 blocked scissor kicks. The trade off between damage is unreal. I don’t get why he wouldn’t have charge on wakeup? Also, I’d VERY rarely jump in on Honda. Good Hondas will autocorrect Ex-Headbutt and you’ll cry as you watch like 25% of your health go down. Damage is ridiculous. And I’ve never fought a Honda that’s had trouble antiairing me (oh, did I mention that anti air Ex-Headbutt HURTS?).
I refuse to believe the Abel match up isnt 6-4 in his favor
Akuma matchup is a joke.
Abels matchup is the same as it was in Vanilla
Honda and Blanka without meter are also easy to get around.
Chun can’t zone anymore which tips this matchup greatly in bisons favor.
Rog can still be a bitch; so can Ryu.
Fei Long can shut bison down if he knows what he’s doing.
Akuma’s a joke for which character? Ryu isn’t bad anymore now that I have experience against a lot of Ryus. Why can’t Chun zone anymore? And I hear Honda’s lp headbutt now has invincibility so how is that easier?
Against an Abel that plays the match up he is able to build meter early chose when ex COD or EX I hope it’s a normal and set up his mix up which if you guess wrong it’s game over.I believe it’s a 5/5.
Akuma in my experience is 5/5 now because of his stun/dmg reduction and the fact that he cant whiff throw demon flip OS shoryu anymore. Also Bison’s U2 helps keeping Akuma from running away.
I think dic has a .5 more advantage on viper,ibuki,juri,blanka,and elf.A gief who uses footsies yeah I can accept 6/4.I agree with honda being 6/4 now and I believe Guile is 7-3 guile.It was 7-3 in vanilla and when I ask what really changed now one can give me an answer.And no ,fixes on ex pc is nothing compared to the damage guile dishes out know relative to other characters. Before the match was not an issue because he killed you slowly so you could adapt or just keep pushing him into the corner now versus a lame guile everytime he hits it’s a huge chunk of life. And risk/reward is not in your favor.
Why is the Guile match so fucked up for Bison? I have a basic idea from the Guiles I’ve been raped by but what’s the breakdown?
Lp sonic boom spam. Very hard to get around since it recovers so damn fast (can’t punish with anything; can beat a predicted one (and maybe a really close range one?) with EX PC).
Cr. fierce/ st. fp beats all jump ins. No need for air throw or nj. anything.
Godlike normals.
Bison can’t get in on Guile without completely guessing while Guile just chips away with booms.
don’t forget that guile’s s.lp and s.hp stuffs scissor pressure cold. Against a good guile, not only does it feel impossible to get in, once you get in it’s still difficult to stay in.
as for bison vs honda, I don’t see why it’s 6-4 now. It was pretty dead even 5-5 in vanilla, neither character’s really changed enough to swing a whole point. Both characters should still be approaching this matchup in the exact same way, and nobody’s really gained any advantage.
Akuma use to rely heavily on zoning Bison with Air fireballs/shanketsu to get the health advantage then safely going onto his mixup game, in Vanilla. This time around Akuma is taking huge risks if he’s going to Zone with fireballs due to fact that EX-PC can simply absorb fireballs at all angles. Also, demon flipping can’t be used freely with ultra II flashing around.
Honda matchup didn’t change much since vanilla; he still will struggle on his wakeup options without meter; that is a general flaw him and blanka have.
Ryu isn’t as hard as he used to be; but he is the only character that can successfully lame Bison out with ease and you can’t deny that Ryu all around has better tools than Bison has.
As for Chun; her game relied alot on zoning with normals and fireballs against Bison. What happened in super is she is forced to play footsies with Bison because ultra 2 won’t let her zone so mindlessly like she use to before.
my2c
Vs Honda 5.5 Honda’s favor. The key here versus Honda’s AA headbutt is to safe jump it. His fastest versions (hp and ex) all have a whopping 8 frames of startup which makes it easy to safe jump. The best way to go about this is off a untechable knockdown, usually from a throw. It’s possible to safe jump from a knockdown off a slide but you don’t have as much control afforded by a throw knockdown due to spacing issues (basically whether it’s a max range slide knockdown or whether bison was a bit closer to Honda) but a knockdown from a throw is always the same, so you just have to have the safe jump timing ingrained.
Also this is the only safe situation in which Bison can apply any sort of mixup pressure game on Honda without the risk of eating huge damage. Untechable knockdown > mixup safe jump j.hp or crossup safe jump j.mk. Otherwise as most ppl should know most of this matchup is both characters trying to lame each other out, take the lead, then sit on it. Imo, it’s a slight edge to Honda mainly because he dishes out more damage per hit compared to Bison. Honda has slightly more room for error, but whoever runs out of patience first will typically lose.
I must be doing something wrong vs Abel but some of you are saying s mk s hk beats roll however I find if an Abel sees it coming they just roll through it and can throw me. There doesnt seem to be enough recovery on the roll to kick them out of the throw.
Vs Honda its hard to say. Bison is way more mobile and can use that to outzone Honda and get in quickly and get his damage and get out. Bison has so many gay options to get out of Honda’s pressure so even though Honda can do more damage Bison can get out of his pressure much easier.
see I don’t think it matters that one blocked headbutt = 3 blocked scissors because one blocked headbutt means you should hit him with scissors for the punish. And as other people brought up, it’s fairly easy to safejump that headbutt. Hmm, i guess your right in that NJ fierce beats us out of the air clean, but i still think we AA him easier.
The other thing is that people always assume honda always has meter for EX headbutt when in truth, he is so dependent on it and throws it out so often, there are significant portions of the match where he doesn’t have meter for it.
When critiqing and analizing matchups people have to look at ALL the variables. Vitality, priority, damage, limitations of moves vs the character, meter management, mobility and two of the most important variables that some people seem to overlook… Life leads and comeback factor. What makes Honda and Gief hard matches for example is the fact that they ARE tanks, they do heavy damage and in a life lead situation it can be extremely tough for the player to come back in those situations (not impossible just hard) I’ve seen this in many games in high level through the years but life leads play so much of an important role in most in matchups Super because Super is a lame turtle based game. So if the player in the matchup with the advantage gets a lead, in the back of his head he knows what the character hes fighting can and cant do in that situation so he’ll turtle and take full advantage of the characters limitations or ability/inability to comeback.
Unlike other SF games where there are guard bars, customs etc. that make it easier to make comebacks, in the 4 series there are no guard bars so that makes it more turtle oriented. In ST characters can get very limited but at the same time what made it a little more balance was that because its a heavy damage game one good knockdown can give you a win off a comeback. In Super there are so many escape options, calculations and guessing it makes it harder which is WHY matchups are so much harder in in it.
Just remember that…
Good thread so far…
Assuming we’re talking about high-level players only, characters with normals that rival Dictator give him trouble - especially those who have 3 frame jabs or LKs. Dive kicks and real vortexes can also be difficult to beat.
This is why Able, Akuma, 'Rog, Chun, Rufus, Ryu are a bit more difficult than most. Honda, 'Gief and Sagat have excellent damage output and stamina, giving them a small advantage too. Guile seems to be literally built to keep Dictator in check.
I don’t know why people seem to underestimate Chun and Ryu’s normals.
Characters that don’t deal well with Dictator’s cr.lk, meaty cr.mk, st.mk and st.hk are much easier to play against. Setup that rushdown with footsies all day.
Abel vs Bison changes when Abel has EX meter for offense. He doesn’t need EX to escape, his regular rolls do the job, really. Where as Bison has to build some meter to use for offense AND defense (escape). How fast are you building meter compared to Abel depends on how much offense you’re laying on him before he gets some meter. DRing across the screen is probably okay sometimes until he decides to want to move up and try to stop you too. It’s somewhat of a delicate match up, but in the end, you could always time them out.
If you think Bison is 6-4 over Abel, give us a detailed analysis of it.
Guile is difficult for Bison because Bison needs a lot of work getting in to do some damage. Guile just needs to block properly on knockdowns and get away. Air throws > jump ins from almost any angle within vicinity. Sonic booms are constant chip damage and obstacles to keep Bison running on the timer. He’s either doing all that chip damage to you until 0 seconds or you’re just not getting in. Bison only excels in the close-mid to close range, Guile has the match in his hands from close to long range. This fact is even more apparent when Guile is NOT in the corner, he has all the space to move away. It’s one of those matches, right now in SSF4, where you need good meter building to get in on Guile. And in that match up, your only sources are DRing (you risk taking damage), focusing (you risk taking damage), blocking (you’re taking bits of damage), attacking (momentum based and difficult). Guile’s meter building for this match up is sooooo easy. He’ll just throw booms and follow up with b+LK,f+MK, b+MK, b+HP to counter hit something right out of your blockstun if you try to do other stuff; otherwise you take the chip damage and it’s back to playing cat and mouse.
EX-Psycho is good now to get in, but it’s not totally safe to throw out all the time. EX-Knee Press can be spaced out when Guile isn’t in the corner, he’ll just strut back and comb his hair from the other edge of the screen. EX-Psycho’s projectile absorption properties are gone if it soaks up EX-Sonic Boom