Dhalsim's Matchups

Description

This thread is a legacy thread that was started before the release of SSF4. Much of the information early on is old and inaccurate. This thread is best used as a continual dialogue about various match-ups and the managers of the specific match-up threads should update their posts with the validated information left here.

The [thread=“256942”]Dhalsim Forum Table of Contents Thread[/thread] hosts an index of all individual character match-up threads.

Original Post

The original post is quoted by Cole below and it’s pretty wrong and useless anyway, so I’m just gonna delete it and put up new stuff. I’ll update this section with what I think about the matchups and with what anyone else thinks about the matchups if they’re willing to post their thoughts up. I’m also gonna start a little character-specific section here, with like mini talks about strategies, links to posts with talks about strategies, little random character-specific pokes, gripes, etc. As always, if you want to post up with some good info, I’ll be more than happy to put it up here.

Abel

Akuma

Blanka

Boxer/Balrog

Chun

Claw/Vega

Dhalsim

Dictator/Bison

Fuerte

Guile

Honda

Ken

Rufus

Ryu

Sagat

Viper

Zangief

Are you seriously having that much trouble with Ryu/ken? From my expiernce, it be opposite of yours I think its 7/3 vs ryu/ken but 5/5 Akuma. Akuma can actually get in. Ryu/ken…what are they going to do? Jump heheh they cant throw fireballs, forward slide at any distance. They have to dash in at u which u can poke the hell out of them. If they jump its GG, back strong, back rh, rh slide, jump back strong, jump back fierce so many options for sim to hit them. CLEAN

Just my two cents on how my matches are.

What do u do vs viper currently that gives u such an advantage?

Cole

This is just how I’ve done in practice, and my competition I’m sure has a big effect on the numbers I put up. For example, my Ryu opponents are Evil Elvis, Gootecks, and Valle.

The reason I go even with Ryu/Ken is probably just the damage differential. I knock Ryu three-four times, he hits me with a shoryu and gets a crossup and I often end up pretty basted. Also Sim’s limb hitboxes aren’t that great, and Ryu/Ken’s crouching strong and crouching fierce are really good at counterpoking my limbs for more damage. I don’t see why they can’t throw fireballs; slide gets under fireballs, but they should be fine with that because slide moves you forward, aka out of whatever positioning you had before and closer to them (which is what they want), and in any case you’re not hurting them for it. Maybe I could list this as 6-4 for Sim, but 7-3 is too much in my opinion.

I don’t think Akuma is good enough at getting in that it overcomes the huge damage he takes; he’s one of the few characters who can’t afford to take damage on the way in. Also, it’s really risky for Akuma to be throwing air fireballs; if he does it from a distance, Sim can just teleport up and punish him, and if he does it closer, Sim can short/forward slide under and punish him. And Akuma’s demon flip shenanigans are basically beaten by regular ol’ back+strong and slides. Basically, I feel Akuma has to stick mostly to what Ryu/Ken do, except he takes way more damage in the process. The only area he’s better in is in wakeup games, where his teleport can get him out of any ultra setup (you can punish him for it, but not with anything nearly as damaging as ultra). But maybe I’m overestimating Sim in this matchup.

About Viper, I just don’t think Viper has very good answers for Sim’s limbs. Her normals don’t make for good counterpoking and her regular jump-ins lose to Sim’s antiairs/slides/air attacks, and while her air flame kick is a good meaty crossup, Sim can just slide under it for free if it’s not meaty and can teleport away if it is. And like Akuma, if Sim hits her, she feels it, and that means she has to play it safe. She can’t really deal damage unless she’s up close, but it’s kinda hard for her to get up close without taking serious damage. Only reason I don’t list this as more of a win for Sim is that he can’t throw fireballs for fear of Viper just doing seismo on reaction.

Anyway I already disagree with some of the numbers I put up. Edited:

Ryu: 5-5
Ken: 5-5
Blanka: 6-4
Zangief: 2-8
Guile: 3-7
Claw: 5-5 (maybe 4-6)
Sagat: 3-7
Abel: 5-5
Viper: 6-4
Rufus: 6-4
Fuerte: 5-5
Akuma: 7-3

What do you think about the various matchups, win-loss ratio sort of thing?

Heh dirty valle shanigans, ya u are losing to valle, not ryu lol. I guess I dont fear them crossing me up. If u have super, u can stand just out of range, see fireball, slide and link super (timing crucial but not that difficult) Match just feels like ST to me, ryu basically has to do nothing and take risks to build meter. Cause the only way he will get in is with ex somthing or firebal FC dash. Cant be predictable with limbs, u know ryu is trying to counter but its completely to your advantage. I switch from low strong and use stand fierce sparringly cause that is what they try to see and hit. Do it just enough to make them think u are doign it all day.

Gief, that match up is ST style too…but imagine a perfect ST gief, if sim makes one mistake, im dead (this is the truth). So in SF4…its basically easier for gief to do that cause he doesnt have to be perfect, he just spams big risk moves. Its a very slow match but the scariest thing he can do is jump in and do nothing. With that i always jump back strong…rarely i try to anti air him with a ground move if he is jumping mid range. If he is over my head, u can use B-strong to hit meaty splash (which is crazy lol) Also, u know nobody can ever cross sim up? U get free FULL SCREEN port if timed good. Since the turn around happens so fast in SF4, u watch their character, the second there body is on the other side, u do kick port and bam across the screen.

Example: u are getting up, opponent on right side, jumps to left…second he is on other side, u do port to the right (towards their orginal position). now u are across the screen. Its awesome

Lol and the fucking BEST THING EVER i have found…is dhalsim can do d/f,d/f wait…u/f …tap PPP (instant teleport) =)

Its AMAZING. U have so much time to do it, i used to have trouble geting low teleport cause i couldnt get it low enough…now i get it so low fuckin jump fierce doesnt even fully come out and im on the ground already hahaha

Ill post more in a bit about my ideas on some matches, gotta get back to work hehe

Cole

I’ll try teleport out against crossups more, so far it hasn’t worked as well I’d like.

I played Gief in ST and I’m playing Gief and Sim in SF4, and from both sides of the matchup I think it’s very different from how it was in ST. In ST, Gief can’t go into tank mode because just a few fierce/roundhouse limbs can dizzy him and that leads to pretty beefy yoga flame damage, and now Gief has lost half his health and is back to bad positioning. Sim’s normals have a bunch of hitboxes, he has tools for just about everything Gief has, fireball goes the whole screen, and Gief doesn’t have a great way to get past it.

But in this game Gief can get hit by 6 fierces and not get dizzied, and even 6 fierces doesn’t take off half life. Lariat beats virtually everything Sim has on startup (even ultra), ex green hand gets him in really easily, and any knockdown leads to a very dangerous situation for Sim. Fireball dissipates and Gief has better ways around it. Gief doesn’t have to cross Sim up, he can just do short knees safe jump (safe from super/ultra). Gief backs Sim up into the corner pretty easily, and that’s a hard place for Sim to be.

In the Gief thread, a Toronto Gief player lists the Gief-Sim matchup as 10-0. I think that’s too high, but I definitely think Sim loses big time.

I haven’t had much trouble taking down Viper with Dhalsim.

Once you close the distance so you can start pegging her with your limbs, there isn’t much she can do about it. If you don’t close the distance, she is free to jump around with the flame kicks and try to hit you with a random ex ground pound. Throw out a fire and if she doesn’t jump over it, you pretty much have your ticket to close the gap and start throwing limbs at her.

A cornered Viper doesn’t have too many options once the limbs start flying… s. forward and s. roundhouse take her out of the air before she can come at you, s. strong, yoga fire, and s.hp keep her in the corner.

I haven’t played too many Vipers, but once I get them in the corner there hasn’t been much they could do to retaliate with if I didn’t get tagged by a random ex ground pound. As long as I controlled the spacing and didn’t let her start the flame kick mixups, it was easy for me to win. Wasn’t the fastest match, but it wasn’t too difficult.

I just have no idea what to do against Gief.

A) Attacking from the air is not an option. It’s not worth the risk of eating a lariat, which beats all of Sim’s air attacks.

B) Anti-airing Zangief is very hard. His jumping fierce, fierce splash, short knees, forward, and roundhouse beat or trade with all of my antiairs, including roundhouse, forward, back+roundhouse, slides, jump back fierce, and jump back strong. His fierce, fierce splash, and roundhouse beat or trade with roundhouse and forward from various distances, his fierce, forward, and roundhouse beat or trade with back+roundhouse, his short kness and forward beat slides, and his fierce and roundhouse beat jump back fierce and strong. My most consistent antiairs are slides, but if he does knees or forward, I lose, and I really don’t want to be next to Gief. And even if I guess right several times in a row and he guesses right once, that once is much more dangerous to me than my several are to him.

C) Moving backwards and being close make me lose, but I have to move backward or risk getting close. Hitting him (like with slide) and teleporting backward, jumping backward, and walking backward all put you closer to the corner, and once Zangief corners Sim, Sim loses. Being close to Gief makes Sim lose because most of Sim’s attacks leave him at a frame disadvantage that leads to spd, and most of his moves have enough startup that Gief can spd them. So what does Sim have to do when Gief gets close? Move backward.

Once Sim is cornered, he’s totally done. SPD all moves, lariat all jumps immediately on reaction, lariat all teleports immediately on reaction, lariat through ultra and super, etc. Sim effectively has no way out.

D) Sim has no life and does no damage, and Gief has a lot of life and does a lot of damage. It takes a crapload of hits by Sim to hurt Zangief and only a few hits by Gief to hurt Sim. As a result, Gief can go into tank mode, and even if he gets hit by yoga fire or limbs a few times, all he needs to win is to get in once, and he can afford to get hit several times to do that.

Next time I play a Gief player I’m going to try down-back jab and fierce and down-toward fierce and see what happens, maybe those are the secret awesome antiairs that could make this matchup reasonable.

I picked Sim v Gief in a tourney yesterday and lost for free, and later I used Gief against a Sim player and beat him for free. That Japanese matchup chart lists this as only 6-4 for Gief, but, at least right now, I just don’t see it.

Update:

Ryu: 5-5
Ken: 5-5
Blanka: 6-4
Zangief: 2-8
Guile: 4-6
Honda: 6-4
Claw: 4-6
Sagat: 3-7
Dictator: 4-6
Abel: 5-5
Viper: 6-4
Rufus: 6-4
Fuerte: 5-5
Akuma: 5-5

So, more about Sim v Gief.

Jumping strong, standing roundhouse, and standing strong beat lariat from max range, even on lariat’s startup. And obviously all low attacks beat punch lariat.

I’m still having real problems antiairing him, though. He can jump in a way that puts him out of range of all of my fast antiairs but leaves him in spd range, which obviously leads to me getting hurt. I can do roundhouse slide to knock him down as he lands, but if I mess it up, it’s retardedly unsafe on block and Gief can do whatever he wants.

There’s also a very dangerous range where I can’t do yoga fire because Gief will just do ex green hand on reaction, and throwing out pokes is kinda risky because he might guess ex green hand and knock me down and get free wakeup games on me. Chances are he won’t guess right, but the expected benefit for him of psychically green handing my pokes is pretty high and the expected cost of me throwing out pokes is also pretty high, so it’s a dangerous situation. And I don’t want to back up too much, because, as above, I don’t want to get cornered. Best thing to do is an occasional jump-back strong or to just sit there blocking waiting for him to do something.

You can punish a blocked ex green hand with down-back fierce to super or back+forward xx flame xx super.

Yeah this match is still hard as fuck. (Gief vs sim). Jumping (far) strong is your friend in this matchup though if you want to try to air to air him. JUst does piss poor damage :confused:

Rufus and bison eats sims food also.

Yeah, Rufus gives sim a hard time in my experience, divekicks are hard for him to antiair unless youre using EX upflame.

his J rh is too good against sim as well since sim takes to the air a hell of a lot.

Bison, wh are you having trouble in this matchup? I havent had much trouble with it myself. Sims slide game neutralizes bison stomp/psycho fake trickery, and when ou get him knocked down its ahrd for him to get away from yoga teleport/fb mixups. his stand RH is good against sim though.

Still dont know what to do against Sagat though.

I guess I don’t see how you guys are having so much trouble with gief. I think you guys are just panicking when he gets close and putting yourself into bad situations. Then you try to rely on teleport and he appears right in front of gief and SPD time. You can sit there and mash fierce 100 times, on 101 you hesitate and he lariets, free hit.

Like i said before the match is switched. It is dhalsim who has to play patient, watch for openings and not make mistakes where gief can just spam and once he gets lucky he can get some good dmg in. I play this match just like ST.

Im sure another problem u are having are giefs that like to jump in and do nothing, u have no answer for it correct? Ground normals whiff, then u get SPD. Heh this is one trick I use, but def not something u should do more than once or twice. But if I go to anti air him and he does nothing, my defualt move is to do D+PPP, if he lands and SPD (which he will) it will whiff and u get free throw or super, or whatever out of D+PPP.

Also, shit just keep putting yourself into the corner, the second he thinks u have him cornered. Wait for that jump, purposly slide with forward under him so he crosses you up faster, and teleport in the opposite direction and u will be back across the screen. Rinse repeat standing fierce bait, throw fireballs from full screen so he cant do shit and DONT be predictable.

Beat Zangief in my sleep =P he IS NOT TOP TIER!!! People are just so fuckin scared when they play they dont notice themselvs making 100 mistakes and letting gief get in. Its still just gief, he has to take BIG RISKS for BIG REWARD.

Cole

Ryu: 5-5
Ken: 5-5
Blanka: 6-4
Zangief: 3-7
Guile: 4-6
Honda: 6-4
Claw: 4-6
Sagat: 3-7
Dictator: 5-5
Abel: 5-5
Viper: 6-4
Rufus: 6-4
Fuerte: 5-5
Akuma: 5-5

The Gief matchup is getting more manageable, but it’s still a baste. I’m not panicking when he gets in, whatever, he’s probably going to deal damage, and I don’t teleport in front of him. The problem is just that he’s so good at getting in.

What big risks does he have to take?

He has to jump and he has to do green hand as well as Lariet. All risky moves that if the Sim is aware and on point, he can continouly punish. He cant just walk forward cause u will stand fierce him in the face. Which eventually will force him to do one of the above moves. That is the whole match in a nut shell. He is trying to guess right and you are trying to not be so obvious so u can keep him doing those extreme moves and hit him for free. Problem is, your dmg is a bit low so you have to keep it up longer. Where as if he gets lucky once, u are at a disadvantage.

Also, I build meter and save super, i hardly ever use EX with sim cause his super is another defense for me. He jumps, bam. Done.

Cole

can a scrub sim chime in?

if not i’m going to anyways…

what up Cole? we met at ffa when 4 first came out there, you were teaching me about the focus attack cancels with guile v. guile… tight… thx.

what up David? long time no see.

anywho i’ve been playing ALOT at ai ffa etc. and i’ve never been good with dhalsim on ANY version of sf (not counting ww) so of course the first time i tried to play him on 4 at evo i got straight beasted on. and it’s been this way ever since then, EVERY TIME. on whatever version of streetfighter i play i just get people jumping over my limbs, anticipating with srk etc. my ratio of poke to counter was like 2 to 1 ( for every 2 limbs/ fb’s i stuck out theyd get countered half the time)
which is a horrible ratio and the reason i never played sim.

but i had an epiphany when i last played him (against edma and co at AI) i (finally)
realized that my opponents WERE GOING TO JUMP… so i actually had no reason at the start of the round (or any time for that matter) to stick out mad limbs, 'cause the limbs are there for the secondary reason of giving your op reason to jump… and if we already know that our op has the jump mindset we can simply wait, no need to do any more encouragement so to speak.

so long story short, i turtled up and did nothing and pretty much just waited for them to jump at me secure in the knowledge that they wouldnt try to triple dash in and throw me (who does this). and low and behold what happened is they would zone me for a sec and then try some rash/bold maneuver to get in and i would AA them or toss them away… which lead to them being more conservative with there offense, which lead to me being able to actually (play) sim and stick out like 4-5 fierces, strongs forwards etc. in a row. it was fucking cool! lol.

so basically my epiphany was that i had to show them that i could AA them consistently. once thats accomplished i could do almost whatever i wanted.
btw i still lost these games because honestly i never play with sim, i dont even know all the motions for his specials much less the timings of them. but the strat worked.

not saying i’m on the level of any sims here, just saying an op who thinks that theres a 90% chance that they are gonna take damage for jumping becomes much more pliant to whatever it is you want to do.

also a tactic i use v gief with chun (my main) is to stay INSIDE the range of his ex glove of cheese… 'cause most giefs i’ve seen use glove in one of two ways mainly:

to blow through ranged pokes.

and to advance into spd range through it’s tremendous wiff animation.

so my tactic is to deny gief wiff ex glove range, i basically take that tactic out of his arsenal, then all i have to worry about is his breaking through pokes, jumping and or using something else to hit my standing hk, to which i adjust. but put simply its HARD for him to psychic glove through stuff and for every one that he misses (cause i blocked it) its COMBO TIME!

i dont find the matchup ( v.chun) easy, but it is tolerable even though chun has BUTT AA’s.

the way i see it is, there are two characters that force you to pplay them differently than everyone else, that BOTH come with huge threats before you even see what whoever is playing them actually does.

they are gief and sim.
people want to buttfuck sim the instant it says “fight”. seriously, theres no such thing as being to close to sim.

and they want to stay the fuck away from gief, run all day if possible, basically treat him like hes got airborn gonorrhea.

sorry for the rambling… i’m bored…

as i play more and more sim ill come in with more detailed tactics next time.
no more rambling.

-dime

does gief’s EX green hand go through yoga flame as well?

hahahah WOW Dime_X, I applaud your post my friend. You have fuckin found the needle in the muther fuckin haystack!! Its very hard to get that across to most people trying to learn sim.

But I couldnt have said it any better, in fact i almost wanna print this post and fuckin hand it out to all beggining sim players.

This is EXACTLY what you need to be doing. You are right, people think "oh its sim, fuck sim ill jump at him, do whatever i want, i can get the biggest combos, sim cant do shit. Im gonna uppercut his limbs and have my way with him.

The fuckin SECOND you start getting consistent with counterng there jump…they are fuckin dumbfounded. Believe me, they will jump 5 times in a row…counter them 5 times…they sit there…then they think…oh he just got lucky so ill wait and not be obvious with my jump. They jump again, you put them fuckin down. The second u see them starting to formulate a plan…is when u are free to do whatever u want.

People are always gong to jump at sim. Its been in grained in their mind since WW that the only way in, is to get a lucky jump or lucky dp on limbs, knock sim down and advance.

Most the people I play up here in WA vs my sim already know they cant get away with jumping. So they turtle and sit there. So it gives me time to build meter, teleport bait, do intelligent poking and start making them feel helpless. They HAVE to take a chance, sim does not. I can pressure u from across the screen. Sure, there is no block stun meter, but nobody lkes having to block shit from across the screen. FORCE them to play the ground game, MAKE them feel like they have to jump so u can get free counters.

In sf4, they made anti air moves mindless with all characters. This game is all about footsies and FC shanningans. Sim has two moves that cover all antiairs, B+rh (for people that jump from a distance) and B+Strong (for people that are right above your head) Sim needs nothing else but he can…jump+fierce, jump back+neutral strong, teleport, slide, ex-upflame. So you gotta ask yourself, he has 2 main ones that stop everything, and about 5 others just to change it up and keep people guessing. Nobody should EVER JUMP AT SIM!!! You have the tools to destroy anyone.

Thanks for that Post Dime, you are on the fast track to being a Sim pro my friend =)

Cole

Hey guys, i don’t see a matchup rating for boxer so just wonder what you guys think? I personally have more trouble with boxer than most other characters. I still win my share of games against boxer but it’s a tougher fight than most other characters imo.

few things that makes boxer tougher against sim.

  1. His normals are very good. (c. mp, c. hp, & maybe other i don’t know about) at countering sim’s limbs. my st. hp & j. hp gets beat out of trade by those sometime. When we do trade, sim will be on the losing end.

  2. Boxer has a low jump and combine with his j. rh (which hits at an angle) give sim some trouble with AA with b. mp or b. rh. Sim will win if you do b. mp or b. rh (depending on distance) early but will trade or stuff if slightly late.

  3. boxer has the ex. rush punches that can take a hit to get in so sim can’t poke that much as you will get hit from the rush punches.

These are some problems I run across against boxer. I still think sim gets the advantage in this match up, just have to be more cautious about the things boxer can do to get in and counter pokes.

I’m interested in what you guys think and what strats you have against boxer.

hey cole thx for the positive response:tup: if you want to print that up for BEGINNING sims in your area, it would be an honor, of course i wouldnt mind. i would think with you being pretty much americas premier sim player there would be lots of people wanting to pick up sim when your around to teach them.

would it be possible for me to get in on some of that elite fa shenanigans though:cool:

lol my execution isnt what it should be so it’s hard for me to practice such things.

-dime