Dhalsim vs. Zangief Thread

[Unreallystic]

Well while being peaceful…Gief will drink all the villages water…ghandi…

Real talk though, I hate fighting agaisnt Sim…its a painful fight for us to, whether in our favor or not. S.hp is ridiculously nice, just don’t spam it or it gets lariated…which is a knockdown…which is game over. whoever said keep gief out completely…is correct. If your d.rh slide can hit Gief…your too close.

Be aggresive…the Dhalsims that crush me are the ones that start the fight coming to me, immediatly pushing me towards the corner as I try to figure them out. b.rh stops all of gief’s jump-ins cold, but be wary of uber aggresive counters on this from Gief, especially once frustrated. S.rh is a … disgusting move for sim in this match up, from far it hits him, and up close it hits him crouching (though b.mk->flame would be better). Gief should almost never RBG, but I’ll do it in a heart beat against Sim…well EX when close, and I’ve seen others do it. I ‘assume’ the IAT combo is the firebal->teleport->headbutt->b.mk xx yoga flame xx super combo…if you time it right its the perfect lariat counter for ‘scrubby’ Giefs.

Forget all the, just remember to hold foward and never ever ever use s.hp against Gief…he really really hates Dhalsim’s that try to fight in his throw range wink wink

• :bluu:

[rtdzign]

I actually think the best place to be is within the tip of s.HP range of Gief as opposed to Opposite side of screen.

Sometimes I use c.MP or c.HP that goes under Lariat… i think. Just to change it up.

From across the screen Gief can kick Lariat to build meter. If you where closer you could punch him as he comes out of it. From midrange if he EX green hand gets blocked you can counter with b.HK or throw if blocked close if you need to change positioning to stay out of corner.

If they jump you might be able to stuff it with a s.MK or s.HK. If they empty jump, a lot of times they will Green Hand on landing. Then try to do a bunch of Lariats up close. I usually back dash and b.HK the lariat if the knee will hit only the Lariat fist. ( you want to only hit him in the knuckle other wise you are too close and will get hit)

This part o the guessing game is where they usually can close and what I need work on. HP yoga fire for knockdown is probably good to try to create spacing, use pokes that can’t be lariated to push him back.

[keldorn87]

Well while being peaceful…Gief will drink all the villages water…ghandi…

Real talk though, I hate fighting agaisnt Sim…its a painful fight for us to, whether in our favor or not. S.hp is ridiculously nice, just don’t spam it or it gets lariated…which is a knockdown…which is game over. whoever said keep gief out completely…is correct. If your d.rh slide can hit Gief…your too close.

Be aggresive…the Dhalsims that crush me are the ones that start the fight coming to me, immediatly pushing me towards the corner as I try to figure them out. b.rh stops all of gief’s jump-ins cold, but be wary of uber aggresive counters on this from Gief, especially once frustrated. S.rh is a … disgusting move for sim in this match up, from far it hits him, and up close it hits him crouching (though b.mk->flame would be better). Gief should almost never RBG, but I’ll do it in a heart beat against Sim…well EX when close, and I’ve seen others do it. I ‘assume’ the IAT combo is the firebal->teleport->headbutt->b.mk xx yoga flame xx super combo…if you time it right its the perfect lariat counter for ‘scrubby’ Giefs.

Forget all the, just remember to hold foward and never ever ever use s.hp against Gief…he really really hates Dhalsim’s that try to fight in his throw range wink wink

• :bluu:

Yeah I agree- but I still think gief is a matchup of reaction time, as the second you see that green hand of death coming at yer, you need to decide what your gonna do or its GG.

Just quickly- when a gief does a regular greenhand and its blocked does gief become throwable, even if he uses his command throws? Secondly- if he uses EX hands, and again is blocked, can he been thrown safely, or will his piledriver/w/e out priority you?

My main problems those rush ins after knocked down- cross ups with those 2 knees of pure granite dropping down on yer results in me trying to teleport out only to find a nice hands into throw/lariat :wasted:

[rtdzign]

Just quickly- when a gief does a regular greenhand and its blocked does gief become throwable, even if he uses his command throws? Secondly- if he uses EX hands, and again is blocked, can he been thrown safely, or will his piledriver/w/e out priority you?

I think you can throw or knee him for both. he has a lot of recovery frames from any blocked green hand. Throw him in the corner if you are being cornered, or Knee followed by a back dash or two if you have a lot of space behind you.

My main problems those rush ins after knocked down- cross ups with those 2 knees of pure granite dropping down on yer results in me trying to teleport out only to find a nice hands into throw/lariat :wasted:

If you are meaty kneed, you are pretty much screwed. If you think he is SPD backdash, if Lariat block then backdash. Guess wrong = play again.

When cornered it is difficult to get out. Slide out of corner if they mistime a jump, or b.MP if you can anti air. If you block a lariat and cb.HP as they come out… I think to create some space.

[konkrete]

Just quickly- when a gief does a regular greenhand and its blocked does gief become throwable, even if he uses his command throws? Secondly- if he uses EX hands, and again is blocked, can he been thrown safely, or will his piledriver/w/e out priority you?

ANY blocked green green hand is throwable.
And uhh, why b.rh this? Throw is 100 times a better option…

[rtdzign]

ANY blocked green green hand is throwable.
And uhh, why b.rh this? Throw is 100 times a better option…

Depends on positioning. Most times throw is the better option. Usually isn’t that bad of an option. Except if you just escaped a corner.
If throwing puts you back close to the corner, I think b.HK is the better option.
You always want the option to back dash.

b.HK and 1 backdash puts you at mid range. This is bad for your long range pokes as they are a vulnerable to Lariat, but this is good for a number of reasons.

-Optimal Anti-Air distance. b.HK will stuff jump if they jump after you.
-Lariat, if far enough, can be countered with b.HK. The proper distance is if you can knee his knuckle and nothing else.
-Green Hand can be blocked and thrown.
-Might be close enough to b.HK if they attempt to empty jump.

Having the option to have backdash room if needed in-case you lapse in mid range zoning allows you to wiggle room. EX Hand will catch your back Dash though, but since it is risky if blocked they might not throw it out. Just adds one more option to the guessing game.

[Randomness]

Depends on positioning. Most times throw is the better option. Usually isn’t that bad of an option. Except if you just escaped a corner.
If throwing puts you back close to the corner, I think b.HK is the better option.
You always want the option to back dash.

b.HK and 1 backdash puts you at mid range. This is bad for your long range pokes as they are a vulnerable to Lariat, but this is good for a number of reasons.

-Optimal Anti-Air distance. b.HK will stuff jump if they jump after you.
-Lariat, if far enough, can be countered with b.HK. The proper distance is if you can knee his knuckle and nothing else.
-Green Hand can be blocked and thrown.
-Might be close enough to b.HK if they attempt to empty jump.

Having the option to have backdash room if needed in-case you lapse in mid range zoning allows you to wiggle room. EX Hand will catch your back Dash though, but since it is risky if blocked they might not throw it out. Just adds one more option to the guessing game.

neutral throw doesn’t put you close to the corner, and you have an untechable knockdown which gives you lots of time to backdash or whatever.
A knockdown is almost always better. and if GH is punishable by b.rh, that must mean b.mk x flame is viable, and that’s also a better choice since it’s a knockdown

[UltraDavid]

I’ve had a chance to get in a bunch of games with my Gief against Sabin’s Dhalsim over the last couple days. I posted this report about it (and also my games against his Seth and JChensor’s Cammy) over here. He does many things well, but the thing that most impressed me most was how safe he is.

He almost always stands at a range just outside my green hand range where he can react to any quick movement like a green hand or standing roundhouse and any jump (especially ex up flame, which is great from that range), and where he can harass me with quick little stand shorts, stand fierces, and stand roundhouses. Seriously, his positioning on this is so good that more than a few times I thought for sure he was in green hand range where I could chip him or put him into an ex hand focus cancel guessing game (ie will I dash out of the focus or will I charge it and try to hit his potential counter?), but he knows that range better than I know my own ranges, and he was always just a couple pixels into safety. If I whiffed a hand or had it blocked, he always punished with either back+mk xx flame if he liked his positioning or back throw if he was too close to the corner.

When he knocks me down, he almost always just sets up situations that are safe for him. If he’s farther out and has a position on screen he likes, he’ll set up a fire or ultra. If he’s closer, like a range where he can’t fire or antiair a potential jump safely, he’ll do instant air back teleport to air back+rh timed such that if I do anything, the air back+rh stuffs it (ie ex hand, lariat, jump, st rh). If he’s on the wrong side, like too close to the corner, he’ll forgo any meaty options in favor of just teleporting to the other side and then doing instant air back teleport into air back+rh again. He very rarely does even a ranged meaty normal for fear of wakeup lariat or ex hand.

He rarely puts out unsafe fires. He mixes up between jab and fierce fire (I have to act differently depending on which one he uses) and almost always minimizes the potential risk to himself, ie he does them outside of my on-reaction ex hand range (not that I’m in ex hand range often, as above).

He’s very cognizant of my meter and ultra as well. If I have 3 bars, he’ll be more careful with his pokes for fear of ex hand and ex hand focus cancel mixups. If I have ultra, he knows that I’m keeping my ultra in mind when going for mixups, so he’ll tilt his wakeups towards a more jump-heavy repertoire.

There are a couple places where he can’t escape taking risks, like in antiairs and up-close situations, but he’s even good at those. He plays the wheel of options antiair game very well, and if he can take a guaranteed knockdown with ex up flame, then even if it trades, he’s happy to do so. He also guessed out of probably 90% of my ultra setups, and no, I don’t think I’m exaggerating on that number. I definitely need to work on my mixups and combos, but still, that rate of escape is pretty incredible.

This idea of constantly setting up situations is what makes Dhalsim an interesting character to me. It was great to play against someone who’s one of the best in the world at doing it. Two nights ago he beat me but I often kept it semi-respectable, but last night he owned me 3-0 in matches that were not even close. I’ve been going even with or beating a lot of very good name-brand players in the few weeks since I started getting respectable again (took about 9 months off from regular competition until about a month and change ago), including Ryu, Rufus, Sagat, Bison, Abel, Balrog, Viper, Akuma, Chun, and Gouken players I know you’ve all heard of, but Sabin straight up has my number. The matchup is probably just slightly in Gief’s favor, but in the end against Sabin I probably went 3-7 at best. Definitely the hardest opponent I’ve ever had in SF4, and I’ve played most of the best this continent has.

[Lollaff]

I don’t think knee beats all Giefs jump-ins clean. I can’t remember what beats what, but UltraDavid problably knows that better than anyone.

[UltraDavid]

Most of the whole wheel of options for Sim’s antiairs v Gief’s jumps is in that post I linked. Check it out.

Sabin very rarely used back+rh to antiair me. I mean I rarely jumped at a range where back+rh could work anyway, but at that range he preferred to use ex up flame. Ex up flame is better both because it knocks down and because unlike back+rh, which whiffs against Gief’s empty short jump into spd, ex up flame beats short jump attempts. You use a bar of meter and sometimes trade with Gief’s air normal, but it’s much better to do that while not risking spd into meaty shenanigans and being able to set up post-antiair fires/ultras than to use a back+rh gamble with no safe post-antiair setups.

[NDRWPNDY]

Snip.

Godlike post, UltraDavid.

I read in the Japan thread that Sabin was using Fierce Yoga Fire as a sort of ghetto anti-air against Gief’s j.Forward. Did you see that in action? What do you, as a Gief/Sim player, think about that shit?

[keldorn87]

I’ve had a chance to get in a bunch of games with my Gief against Sabin’s Dhalsim over the last couple days. I posted this report about it (and also my games against his Seth and JChensor’s Cammy) over here. He does many things well, but the thing that most impressed me most was how safe he is.

He almost always stands at a range just outside my green hand range where he can react to any quick movement like a green hand or standing roundhouse and any jump (especially ex up flame, which is great from that range), and where he can harass me with quick little stand shorts, stand fierces, and stand roundhouses. Seriously, his positioning on this is so good that more than a few times I thought for sure he was in green hand range where I could chip him or put him into an ex hand focus cancel guessing game (ie will I dash out of the focus or will I charge it and try to hit his potential counter?), but he knows that range better than I know my own ranges, and he was always just a couple pixels into safety. If I whiffed a hand or had it blocked, he always punished with either back+mk xx flame if he liked his positioning or back throw if he was too close to the corner.

When he knocks me down, he almost always just sets up situations that are safe for him. If he’s farther out and has a position on screen he likes, he’ll set up a fire or ultra. If he’s closer, like a range where he can’t fire or antiair a potential jump safely, he’ll do instant air back teleport to air back+rh timed such that if I do anything, the air back+rh stuffs it (ie ex hand, lariat, jump, st rh). If he’s on the wrong side, like too close to the corner, he’ll forgo any meaty options in favor of just teleporting to the other side and then doing instant air back teleport into air back+rh again. He very rarely does even a ranged meaty normal for fear of wakeup lariat or ex hand.

He rarely puts out unsafe fires. He mixes up between jab and fierce fire (I have to act differently depending on which one he uses) and almost always minimizes the potential risk to himself, ie he does them outside of my on-reaction ex hand range (not that I’m in ex hand range often, as above).

He’s very cognizant of my meter and ultra as well. If I have 3 bars, he’ll be more careful with his pokes for fear of ex hand and ex hand focus cancel mixups. If I have ultra, he knows that I’m keeping my ultra in mind when going for mixups, so he’ll tilt his wakeups towards a more jump-heavy repertoire.

There are a couple places where he can’t escape taking risks, like in antiairs and up-close situations, but he’s even good at those. He plays the wheel of options antiair game very well, and if he can take a guaranteed knockdown with ex up flame, then even if it trades, he’s happy to do so. He also guessed out of probably 90% of my ultra setups, and no, I don’t think I’m exaggerating on that number. I definitely need to work on my mixups and combos, but still, that rate of escape is pretty incredible.

This idea of constantly setting up situations is what makes Dhalsim an interesting character to me. It was great to play against someone who’s one of the best in the world at doing it. Two nights ago he beat me but I often kept it semi-respectable, but last night he owned me 3-0 in matches that were not even close. I’ve been going even with or beating a lot of very good name-brand players in the few weeks since I started getting respectable again (took about 9 months off from regular competition until about a month and change ago), including Ryu, Rufus, Sagat, Bison, Abel, Balrog, Viper, Akuma, Chun, and Gouken players I know you’ve all heard of, but Sabin straight up has my number. The matchup is probably just slightly in Gief’s favor, but in the end against Sabin I probably went 3-7 at best. Definitely the hardest opponent I’ve ever had in SF4, and I’ve played most of the best this continent has.

V nice post man! Very insightful! Will incorporate the advice into my game accordingly! :pleased:

[Noema]

Excellent post UltraDavid!

I had a lot of problems against Gief in May when I picked up Dhalsim, but I feel much more comfortable with the match-up now. I even enjoy it!:wow:

Gief and Sim are like the Ying / Yang of SFIV. They are polar opposites. So I feel I can keep Gief out for most of the match, but one mistake can potentially cost you the round, even if he only has a sliver of life left and your bar is still yellow.

But then again, Gief has to play real smart too, because he has to face a roulette of pokes. He has an answer to everything Sim throws at him, but he has to guess right.. Otherwise he’s just going to eat pokes for 80 seconds.

It’s a very demanding match-up for both players. But that’s the beauty of it.

Oh, and here’s Sabin vs. Kog:

[media=youtube]4gdANcCjH-Q[/media]

I read in the Japan thread that Sabin was using Fierce Yoga Fire as a sort of ghetto anti-air against Gief’s j.Forward.

You can see Sabin using Fierce Yoga Fire as anti-air at least once in the match-up. It’s pretty cool! I must confess I tend to abuse the jab fire, and disregard Fierce because of its range. But the fact that it knocks down makes it a valuable tool.

[System_1]

zangiefs are a joke. no match for my sim. hit me up if you wanna get destroyed. psn id: longlimbs

[adnan]

zangiefs are a joke. no match for my sim. hit me up if you wanna get destroyed. psn id: longlimbs

its not an easy match-up, but probably you never experierenced a gief out side of xbox live (5-5 match up)

[gore]

It’s a very demanding match-up for both players. But that’s the beauty of it.

Oh, and here’s Sabin vs. Kog:

[media=youtube]4gdANcCjH-Q[/media]

Very very interesting video.
Sabin uses cool way to change side (and to left a corner) :

• hitting Gief with super or ultra while he’s jumping. Free teleport and a back dash.
• jumping forward after blocking a Gief’s air attack. If Gief try to grab him after the jump-in he will escape. He can always teleport back in ar if something goes wrong.

He mixes lp fires and hp fires (I always use lp lol).

He uses EX meter only to super or EX blast.

[konkrete]

I was playing some casuals last night and reversal supered against his ultra. My super flash happened as the camera angle was still for gief’s ultra, which I’ve never seen before. I had no idea that this worked but evidently it does. So I guess it’s worth trying if you aren’t in recovery.

[Noema]

zangiefs are a joke. no match for my sim. hit me up if you wanna get destroyed. psn id: longlimbs

Definitely not an easy match-up.

Watch these matches between Sabin and Cantona (one of Japan’s top Gief’s):

[media=youtube]YG_1_7x10XI[/media]

[media=youtube]EiiacrdtaXM[/media]

Like adnan said: most online Zangiefs are a joke. And just so you know adnan knows what he’s talking about

http://www.frame-advantage.com/beta/street-fighter-4/85-new-castle-fight-night-iii/700-zohta-zangief-vs-adnan-dhalsim

So close I was rooting for adnan the whole way. :woot:

[System_1]

Definitely not an easy match-up.

Watch these matches between Sabin and Cantona (one of Japan’s top Gief’s):

[media=youtube]YG_1_7x10XI[/media]

[media=youtube]EiiacrdtaXM[/media]

Like adnan said: most online Zangiefs are a joke. And just so you know adnan knows what he’s talking about

http://www.frame-advantage.com/beta/street-fighter-4/85-new-castle-fight-night-iii/700-zohta-zangief-vs-adnan-dhalsim

So close I was rooting for adnan the whole way. :woot:

Weak Dhalsims <> Good Zangiefs. These Dhalsims are a joke and an insult to my character.

[NDRWPNDY]

Don’t feed the troll.

He’ll leave in a minute.