I hear you. And I do think for myself. I had lots of ideas, and asked UltraDavid to test, and they all came back as “doesn’t work”.
In addition I am burnt by how so many people that don’t play Sim argues that he is fine etc. while he in my eyes, and the eyes of all people who play him, is not. Capcom has been the same, so I don’t have faith in their intensions or ability to balance a zoning character like Sim either.
I will try out the character myself, continue to look at footage and think for myself though. But what I am seeing so far is a character with too big of a flaw in a fundamental psrt of his game.
Yeah thats the thing, Capcom treated the character like garbage in SFIV series. He may be a difficult character to balance but surely you couldve given him something to make him not bottom 5 in the course of 7 years? Most of the people who play Sim had very down to earth and intelligent suggestions for him that wouldnt have made him broken and wouldnt have been hard to apply. So its good to make it clear now that we do not want a repeat of that. A character slipping through the cracks and being labelled ‘too hard to balance’ so just play it safe and let him be trash. Thats unacceptable.
The Killer Instinct comparison is cool, but tbh the team behind KI seems fucking awesome and actually know how to balance fighting games. Its not a surprise because people like Keits have played tons of different fighting games for years, he really knows his shit. That team also doesnt have to have the back and forth with Japanese devs. I’m pretty disillusioned with Capcom tbh.
Oh yeah, Ultradavids latest tweets seem quite positive about Sim. Hes basically saying his full screen control is still good but once people get to mid range or closer its about going into the air with V skill pre-emptively and harassing with air to ground stuff. He also says air yoga flame is very+ on block, but not sure how to use it.
-Grounded v-skill activation having projectile and throw invulnerability on lower body on 2nd start up frame
-Grounded v-skill cancelable to air moves after 10 start up frames or so
-Air v-skill available instantly or after a few frames after leaving the ground (Ultra David talked about instant air v-skill, but need to confirm this)
-Air v-skill cancelable to air moves instantly or after a few frames (To stop his upward momentum during air attacks)
-Some frame adjustments on his grounded normals (e.g. Slightly st. Hp start up buff and st. Hk recovery buff)
With those changes he could do stuff like Drill/Jump in/IA teleport jump in, land, instant air v-skill j.HP, b.MK xx back v-skill into back teleport etc. He could go from doing instant air overhead pressure into the same thing or just go back to full screen. Also, since his v-skill is invincible to attacks, you could use IA v-skill as a super strong counter poke and anti air. At midrange you could just IA v-skill and if they press a button you come down with j.HP or some other long reaching normal, or you could just teleport back if they did nothing. And if the opponent jumps at you, you could just IA v-skill to avoid the attack and go straight into an overhead to start pressuring them.
Drill/Jump in/IA teleport jump in, land, instant air v-skill j.HP, b.MK xx back v-skill into back teleport*
I agree that this might be too strong, and I definitely think that Capcom would have to look in to the frames for activating/canceling out of the v-skill etc. before doing something like that
He could go from doing instant air overhead pressure into the same thing or just go back to full screen
Same thing here. Also, you need to take in to consideration that Dhalsim don’t want to be close.
Also, since his v-skill is invincible to attacks, you could use IA v-skill as a super strong counter poke and anti air.
Wait? His v-skill is invincible to attacks? This is new to me. Unless you refer to my suggestion about throw/projectile invulnerability, which would not affect his susceptibility to normal attacks, and I only meant his feet when leaving the ground after activating.
Ah that might be my mistake. I thought some of the v-skill usage in the trailer made it look invul, but it was either just grabs or the time zangief actually went for the attack he teleported.
Not as crazy as i thought then. I thought it was gonna be invul so sim could bait anti airs with it.
Your reply and HiyaMaya’s reply show that everybody has different thoughts on what is best for a character in terms of balance.
At the moment we’re seeing an increasing trend where we are asking for buffs/nerfs to characters before they’ve barely had the chance to breathe. I completely get your lack of faith in Capcom and their ability to balance some of the less popular characters in recent years but at the same time, complaining about a character’s tools after watching a few videos and listening to a small group of people’s opinions on twitter isn’t probably going to be too productive either.
I’m not saying ignore UltraDavid and Art at all. I have nothing but respect for both of them, I’m just saying we’re all players and we all have opinions and they’re not always going to line up. DevilJin gave a great example in Kan-Ra and KI, do you not think that Sim has changed enough that it might take a bit more time to learn how to use every thing that he has effectively?
As a seasoned player your views on how to play this new version of Sim might be a bit too traditional and someone who is coming to him with fresh eyes might see opportunity where you see weakness. Of course that might all be wrong but two days doesn’t seem like enough time to come to a hard decision on anything.
I do think instant air v-skill stuff would be cool, but it would need to be balanced in a way that if someone reads that you are going for it that they should be able to counter. Making it faster enough to people trying to counter poke him on the ground but faster enough to anti air if they know it’s coming.
Well put post! I do agree that it is a little premature, but I am afraid if we don’t speak up now (And it turns out to be correct that he indeed sucks), then it will be a long time before they do anything about it. I would rather speak my mind early.
Also, as you can see in my suggestions, I do not want them to fix him so he can be played SF4 mode. I want them to mainly buff his v-skill that is supposed to be a tool that Sim is lacking in his gameplay. But the way the v-skill looks in the current build, it seems very limited in start up, cancelability, and in the amount of frames needed before you can cancel out of it. I feel like the buffs I suggest would negate his need for a horizontal fireball for example.
I see his potential, but the tools that I see potential in are very limited atm:(
I was an Elena main in SFxT Elena. That doesn’t automatically make me an expert of 3S Elena or USF4 Elena. All three of those games are wildly different from each other, making all the characters within them wildly different from each other.
Maybe non-Sim players are the ones who need to take a crack at him.
This isn’t fair. Everyone and their mother has been watching SF4 for the past 6 years, learning from its ups and downs. Keits and crew didn’t step out of a vacuum “being fucking awesome and knowing how to balance fighting games”. The entire FG industry has been learning how to do “modern fighting games” over the past 6 years in particular, and a big assist goes to SF4 being front and center. Games like Skullgirls primary marketing campaign was sh*tting on Capcom and saying “hey see how different our game is from theirs!” It’s easy to “be fucking awesome” after some other games have paved the way before you. Everyone has learned from the mistakes and successes of the last gen, including the SF5 team.
You don’t think there are people at Capcom, who “know their shit?” You don’t think Combofiend “knows his shit”? You don’t think there are members of the Japanese SF dev team that “know their shit”? Japan is home to arguably the greatest fighting game environment in the world. But, how could those guys possibly know as much as…Keits?
It’s easy to say something like this when you know you can never be proven wrong. Everything is always perfect in theory land.
His V Skill avoids the majority of attacks and projectiles in the game just by the position he is in on the screen and the ability to teleport during it. No way it’s going to have any invincibility frames. It allows you to move to an area of the screen which SF characters normally can not move or attack in. That’s good enough on its own especially with the threat of teleport being able to punish anything with laggy total/recovery frames.
It’s understandable to be afraid of what happened in SFIV, but SFIV started without Combofiend and has been through a lot of changes internally. Especially now. So far I don’t see any character in SFV that looks as bad as they did in IV. There is no “low damage” character which will always be set back for being higher tier. It’s like the old games, everyone is going to be able to hurt and do stun. Which means it can more so come to matchups than being limited in the damage/stun department. Which always helps. Dhalsim definitely looks more combo centric than he ever was in IV which is a good sign.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, a character like Sim over time people will start to slowly put together what the design intention was of the character. Once people have figured out exactly the way he works instead of just trying to plug previous SF Sims into SFV Sim, then it will be easier to assess what actually needs to be changed.
I am talking throw invincibility and lower body projectile only, during the start up of grounded v-skill, and I didn’t think that is too good at all. Also, Sim has never really been able to teleport and punish most stuff on reaction. So you thinking he can hang out in the air and react to stuff with teleport is kind of strange to me.
Well that’s why I said laggy frames. Yoga Float to Teleport looks like it can definitely punish a Ryu fireball or a MP or HP DP on reaction. Especially early on you’re going to get a lot of people going for antsy DPs and other special moves to try to get him out of the air during yoga float and then a teleport can easily become a punish in those situations. The teleport definitely looks quick enough to punish such things.
I don’t mind the idea of wanting some type of invincibility on it. If it’s thought that it’s necessary for Dhalsim to have some type of reversal game, then that’s fine. Just ultimately with only 3 days in its hard to see if that’s really something he needs. We’ll see if you’re right in the long run or there is something else available to him to deal with those situations. He’s a very abstract character now so I’m definitely on a more wait and see approach with him ATM.
But remember he will still have to: react, input tp motion, go through start up/recovery frames of the tp and go through start up frames of an air normal… That’s a lot of frames, and Sim was never able to react to fireballs and punish them with tp in sfIV, and it doesn’t look faster in SFV.
And no, I did not want v-skill to be a reversal, that’s why I said throw/projectile invuln on frame 2, so meaties will beat it. And normal attacks will hit it no matter what, as I suggested.
Edit:
Lots of matches with Filipino champ los… Erm playing with Dhalsim:p He does try his best to play sf5 sim and makes it work to some degree!
He started to get some cool things going in those matches even though he was losing. I liked how much white health was racking up when Champ sandwiched tampa bison in between a flame carpet and the arcing fireball in one match. The Bison matchup looks bad though already. Bison can slide in to gain ground or hit Sim as soon as he sees any fireball.
As I have said before, his VT is best used when the opponent is in or nearly in the corner. Dhalsim seems to have some fairly solid AAs now, so he can punish a predicted jump. If you have time, put out a normal fireball to make jumping out much harder. Remember, after finishing this set up, you need to land a clean hit such as a throw, V-Skill overhead, teleport cross up, or one of his sliding attacks.
About how tight is cr.LK, throw and cr.LK, instant air j.HP?
“Some type” of invincibility as I was saying earlier refers to partial invincibility, not complete invincibility. I know what you were saying and didn’t have a problem with it. It’s just unless you get the word out there it’s just something that you suggest that probably won’t get implemented if they already have a set plan for him in the neutral.
In general though most of my ideas for the game improvement are for the game itself more than the individual characters. I feel the characters overall are going in a much better direction than IV. I feel a better working fundamental game does more help for the characters overall than trying to tweak stuff in an engine that probably still needs more improving than the characters ATM (but still a step up from IV).
Capcom has gotten rid of a lot of the one combo into mix up stun situations in the game so we’ll see how long that lasts. Either way that shows he has a greater emphasis on landing hits for combos instead of just stray hits from range. He has a long way to go as far as development and even Gief has taken some recent big changes like his V Trigger now requiring 3 bars. Expect Dhalsim to change a lot before release and then whichever data Dhalsim gets launched with can be cracked out along with his general play style. Gonna be a long road.
He’s easily the character I’m excited most now to see evolve. Maybe only Karin gets close.