by the way, it seems that after landing successfully a distant Ex Oga, you can combo into Teiga 
at least, somebody said so on the Japanese boards
EDIT: also Crane cr HP seems to work
Better than nothing I guess.
âSeth Killian said that the complete change list is not the complete change list, there are still new things to discover in AE 2012â -Ski-Sonic NEC
bah, weâll see⌠Seth Killian is the same guy who talked about improvements to Crane normals when AE came outâŚ
Iâve been wondering if the changes to FA dash will have any effect on the way hands FADC works.
As it is right now in current AE, hands FADC has slightly better frame advantage if you hold down forward during hands (or some sort of trickery after the hands, which I have yet to fully comprehend, but unrelated to hitboxes for sure), as opposed to doing it, say, holding down back.
Iâve always thought that Genâs FA dash was bugged overall, providing less frame advantage than it should due to some unknown shit which I canât put my finger on, whether it was lvl1 on hit/block, or a simple fadc.
After practising doing it the easymode way (which, from what Iâve garnered in Xianâs videos and his hands on the stick, he seems to do as well), Iâve noticed how big of a difference it makes.
âEasymodeâ is simply holding forward at least right before the hit you intend to cancel (supposedly the last), and then letting go and doing f+MK+MP for an instant focus followed immediately by whatever the heck you wanna combo into, which Iâll assume is a s.MP.
The typical way (say⌠you hold d/b, do c.mp xx hands, FA (cancel) FF (dash) seems to have extremely crappy frame advantage).
I can do Yangâs slashes into U1 easily. And thatâs supposed to be a tight link when it comes to FAs (specially since it needs the ultra motion).
But Genâs always felt oddly harder than it should be. And if you ran the math on the frame advantage a hands fadc combo should provide, it shouldnât feel that hard.
So, again, I wonder if v2012 will make that slightly easier.
In other news, and because I donât feel like posting several times in several different threadsâŚ
Incomplete LK gekiro is silly (you donât get an untechable knockdown anyway, you donât setup a guaranteed safe jump, and you lose out on ~8 damage or so depending on the combo⌠the silly illusion that your opponent will always quick tech is just that⌠an illusion).
Oga setups, unless done perfectly and trained to exhaustion are easily punished.
Throws, pokes, overheads, crossups, two different jumping arcs, safe jumps, super, backdashes, anti-air normals/gekiro. Those are Genâs main components.
These arenât: bnb damage, fadc combos, ogas all day, and risky gimmicks with a character that has low stamina (ie empty crossup crane, c.lk > super, crossup crane, s.lp, c.lk > super). Then again, Iâm one of those Gens (few) who nurture a big fat hatred for Crane c.lk usage.
Gen players need more throws (karaâd as well). Theyâre basic, cheap (arguably), safe if you know how to setup them up so their only options to get out wonât hurt you.
And they set up safe jumps and other trickery if you keep it fresh and the opponent guessing.
What a big crappy post this was.
You mean this right?
[media=youtube]Gl9MWEMgeJ0[/media]
Similar, but it all ends up in the same basket. He never lets go of forward in those videos. So he ends up inputting a dash after the FA instead of âat the same timeâ.
The method Iâm talking about (although seemingly as easy) involves letting go of forward right before doing FA, and then doing FA+forward. The FA adds the forward that you were holding during hands plus the forward you pressed during FA, and you get an instant FA dash on the first frame.
But honestly? Thatâs not really what makes it better. That just makes it so you have the shortest fadc possible.
What makes it faster has something to do with holding forward during hands. Iâve ran a few tests before, but didnât find anything conclusive.
I held forward during hands (no FA), with my opponent in the corner just to see where gen would end up when compared to holding back.
The difference is basically 0.
It has nothing to do with distance. There might be a pixel or two in there, but theyâre prolly added from holding forward slightly after the hands (and gen steps forward a bit).
It has to do with FA itself.
Either that, or Iâm dreaming the shit out of this. Also a probability.
When you say âHe never letâs goâ are you talking about in the video that I just posted? Cuz thatâs me. or are you talking about someone else?
The method I describe is this. Hold Forward, Press FA, then Press Forward once more. So you only have to press forward once essentially.
I like that method better because you can plink and miss time holding forward, and pressing forward once more PLUS Focus Attack. If you do it my way, it doesnât matter if you plink it, because thatâs what itâs supposed to do. Both run the risk of lag dropping the Latent input of forward. But I think it would effect mine less because Iâm only entering one more input, as where the other method you are essentially entering 3, Forward, Forward and Strong.
Example. If you Hold forward, and press Forward too soon, then Focus Attack it wonât come out right. If you do it the method I described, You hold Foward Press Focus Attack and Press Foward once. It leaves less room for error IMO. It all depends on what works best for you. If you can hit it with a high percentile online, donât change it.
But back to your statement about your comparison of Holding back or forward.
The whole point of the method is to get the FADC out as fast as possible. Holding forward isnât so you move closer or anything to do with positioning. Itâs all to do with the FADC speed. I donât recall me saying that it will give him better positioning. All it will do is make him recover faster so if you FA through fireballs you recover fast enough to punish your opponent.
There are two reasons I prefer to hold forward. The first is what we are talking about, getting the FADC to come out as fast as possible so I have the largest window to hit the next move. And B, Pressure game. If Iâm always holding forward, Iâm making Gen move forward a few frames allowing me to keep on them, especially when Iâm doing s.Jab, s.Strong pressure. Even, c.Strong. I donât have to waste time by keeping the stick in neutral and pressing over, that will waste a few frames, and when it comes to Genâs frame traps those few frames are usually important.
@The_Theoretical
No offense, but I would say you misunderstood Genâs FADC a bit.
His FA1 dash on block and hit is -3, and his dash is 19 frames. Same blockstun/hitstun with most other characters, itâs just that their dashes are usually 18 frames (and some faster). Adon and Dan, whose dashes are 19 frames, are put at -3 after FA1 forward dash as well.
If you hold down back during hands, itâs very unlikely that youâll be able to FADC at the fastest timing, reducing your effective frame advantage (just like messiah said). Currently itâs +2/+6 on block/hit by holding the forward when you input FA, so in order to prove that we will have more frame advantage with your method, weâll have to try FADC EX Gekiro and see if it ever connects.
FA1s got increased blockstun/hitstun depending on the stance, so that change is unrelated to FADC.
I know all the numbers.
His FA was referred to as being âbuggedâ for a reason. Because it was a bug. As in: what was happening wasnât making any sense when we looked at the frame data.
The problem is not on block. You can get hit by 3f moves if you hit with LVL1FA > dash forward and block afterwards. That was the bugged they fixed.
Since** it was a bug that could** be unrelated to his FA (frames/hitboxes, etc) and maybe related to his forward dashing frames when canceled from FA (some odd shit),** v2012 could make hands fadc easier**.
That was the point I was trying to make.
Had no idea that was you in the video.
I wrote what you did, and I understand full well how it works. The method I described isnât mine. I just read about it the other day. It was described in a post around here. Old thread about hands fadc. And I noticed Xian appears to do the same (I watched his hands zoomed in in slow motion just to make sure⌠but I might have to ask him).
That method I described has less inputs. Thatâs the only advantage. Yours works perfectly well. The only thing I plink is s.mp. And I donât have any issue with that.
Nor do I have with doing f+MP+MK. If I failed that input, then I wouldnât be able to do something as easy as a hadouken. I believe thereâs nothing to fear regarding that one input.
Itâs justâŚ
Hands+f
f+mp+mk (you have to let go of forward direction right before doing it, but thereâs a shit ton of lenience for dash input when doing an FA)
s.mp etc.
It feels strange at first. Iâm used to dashing properly, not using crazy shortcuts. But as soon as you do it once you start to see how ridiculously easy it is.
The difference between this method and yours is when to go back to neutral.
You go back to neutral after pressing MK+MP (not letting go), and then press F.
The method I read about goes back to neutral before pressing MK+MP, and then presses MK+MP+F.
Difference in frames? Prolly irrelevant.
The thing is that in the later youâre doing the first F input during hands, and then doing focus at the same time as the last input, thus âhidingâ the whole dash input.
In your method you hide the first F input during hands, but then press the last F after focus.
Ridiculously small difference. Either way, we gotta ask Xian about his method just out of curiosity. He pulls that shit out all the time.
actually there isnât a shyte ton of latency because I read that a few months ago and I kept getting a FA1. you have to do it SUPER quick and online itâs not as reliable. But like I said itâs what works for you.
Sorry, could you retype that? I didnât understand.
Thereâs no latency, you read something and you kept getting a Focus Attack lvl1.
What latency?
What did you read?
Focus Attack level1 regarding what?
Sry, but I think Iâm misunderstanding what youâre talking about here.
Currently Genâs FA1 forward dash is -3 on hit in both stances. Getting punished by 3f moves should be natural because it is -3, just like how Shotoâs FA1 forward dash on hit can always be punished by reversal SPD because it is -2 on hit. At least this is what I know, and from what I can see Crane FA1 forward dash on hit will still be punishable with reversal SRK or throw because it will stay as -3 on hit after 2012.
Currently Iâm failing at comprehending what bug you are talking about, so if you can elaborate it for me, it will be great.
I thought it was a bug since I swore by moves having more advantage (or less disadvantage) on hit than on block. I was wrong. FA LVL1 apparentely has the exact same blockstun as hitstun for every character in the game. Doublechecked the tables, turned the game on, recorded FA lvl 1 forward dash block and couldnât punish it with fei longâs flame kick (5f), nor Yunâs EX kicks (4f).
Anyhow, from what I had read, both stancesâ FAs were getting tweaked in frame advantage.
The whole âone will be tweaked in hitstun, and the other in blockstunâ looks silly due to the above fact.
Every Focus Attack Level 1 has the exact same frame advantage on block as they have on hit.
Usually itâs -20~21, with some exceptions at -25 or -26 (like CVP).
If a move has the exact same frame advantage on block and hit, then the blockstun and hitstun are the same.
Any idea why they would tweak hitstun for one focus and the blockstun for the other?
Gen would be the only character in the game with a focus attack that had different blockstun from hitstun.
I see.
I guess they wanted Gen to stay as a weird character. Thatâs the only reason I can see. âWalk speed is different, FA range is different, why not frame advantage!â is my guess on what they thought. Itâs hard to comprehend Capcomâs mind, but they usually buff something that is more minor.
Since I no longer have to point out all the other ways youâre wrong, Iâll explain this. There are two reasons FADC hands combos seem harder than most FADCs.
-
Hit freeze. When something like Yangâs mantis slashes make contact, the game pauses for a moment and effectively makes it easier to time the dash. Genâs hands cause minimal hit freeze, and itâs hard to do a full dash motion in such a small window.
-
Input buffers. You can generally do the FA at any point from the first startup frame of a move to the end of its active frames, but the cancel will only happen between the first and last active frames. That means if you input the FA early then it will cancel right when the move hits, and from there itâs easy to time a dash thanks in part to hit freeze. Genâs hands work exactly like that too, but he effectively canât use the startup buffer - if Gen cancels just before the 4th hit, he will FADC just before the 4th hit because heâs already in the cancel window rather than the buffer window from startup frames.
Basically, itâs like a ~3 frame window vs. 10+ frames for most characters. Most characters can FA first and then dash when the move hits, but Gen has to time the button press during the brief hit freeze and he has to dash at almost the exact same time as the FA. Thatâs why itâs important to use dash shortcuts.
Anyway, I do it the exact same way that messiah demonstrates in his video.
Fake edit: Oh yeah, youâre also buffering the ultra with Yangâs FADC, so the timingâs actually more lenient than Genâs 3f link to s.MP.
umm we could use teiga after oga already when it was distant. i do it now if someones dumb enough to get hit by it that way. or am i misunderstanding
EX Ouga fully invulnerable on startup until he hits the wall like in vanilla. Since they removed the usefulness of MK and HK Gekiro being used in combos except tall characters and the fact that even the EX Gekiro trades or gets stuffed - he needs SOMETHING to get out out of a lockdown situation.
Strange balance callâŚlow health and no tools to save himself from rushdown.
âOh his normal attacks are sooo good now and he has target combos!â That does him no good if heâs getting locked down.
If FADCs (and several other combos) were measured in difficulty purely based on window lengthâŚ
Theyâre based, like Yangâs, on the motions you have to pull off. Many people have a hard time doing Yangâs U2 after a canceled slash due to the motion. Also, itâs a 2~3f window (canât recall, since I canât remember Yangâs dash data).
The reason why Yangâs U2 is somewhat easy in certain situations, is due to the input lenience (like you said in the end). You can input the FADC before he even started his 2nd slash, and start the ultra input during the slash. But this only works really well if you do it as a hitconfirm. Doing it from two straight up slashes is a tad harder.
Ah, and before I forget⌠Hit freeze for hands is not higher than for slashes. FRAPs it and check it yourself. I just did. 1f (if any, to be honest) for each move.
Moves have freeze frames on block. On hit? For the most part, not really.
I counted the number of frames from the first active frame on Yangâs Fierce 2nd slash until Gen recovered. Gen should recover 31f after getting hit. Thatâs what happened. It was either 31 or 32.
Iâve pointed out already that I was mistaken in regards to the frame advantage on Genâs FA.
The rest is just adding insult to injury. And Genâs FADC is still easier than Yangâs. Or Yangâs is harder, as youâd prefer. And itâs harder for the motion itself. Not the timing, but getting the motion in time.
Yang U2 after 2 rekkas FADC is not even CLOSE to a 2-3f window. U2 has 4 frames of startup. U1 has 8 frames. Itâs possible to do 2 rekkas FADC U1, so itâs at least a 4-5 frame window, and feels even more lenient than that. Also re: hit stun for hands - He was saying that the hit stun for hands was lesser than the rekkas, and that was why it was harder. Because you have such a large window of hit stun, you can input mp+mk and dash while that freeze is active, and during the dash you can input the motion for Ultra, and it will come out (if you input it before the dash ends) as soon as the dash ends. If you didnât finish the input before the dash ends, you can still finish in time and probaby get the ultra.
For Gen, he gets very little hit freeze to buffer mp+mk dash, and because itâs not a special or super motion, buffering the mp in the middle of the dash wonât do anything to help him. (Actually, to be honest, Iâm not 100% sure how this works, and would like some confirmation, but it seems like it from my experience).
EDIT:
So this gives you about a 6-7 frame window for the U2 input for Yang.