Dear Pros: A matchup argument regarding High Level Jill v Zero

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1

Greetings. I am making this post in the hopes that a few pros (and many others) will weigh in on an argument that began between NonSexualRice and I regarding the Jill v Zero matchup. It goes without saying that very little is understood regarding Jills matchups, since to this day not a single Jill player has consistently shown dominance with her in a tournament. Much like many other characters, she is simply undersold while the community focuses on easier to use characters during this games first few years.

Please note that Zero is undoubtedly the superior character as far as the grand scheme of UMVC3. I am just a firm believer that Jill possesses an advantage in this matchup as long as she plays cautiously and smart. For every piece of cheese Zero can throw, Jill has an effective countermeasure. The fact that aplayer has yet to achieve this level of high end execution with Jill is irrelevant, and pretty much the only reason people think Zero wins this matchup. As you will read, the data alone supports my claims.

In regards to this matchup, NonSexualRice had this to say:
-Anyone with half a brain knows Jill loses.
-I’m a scrub, and the dumbest poster he has ever met.
-Most of the entire UMVC3 community (which he represents) agrees with him.
-All pro Jill players agree with him (including himself, and he also directly cited Clockwork).
-He has written “millions” of guides. He also “practically created all the gameplay in Max Jill Assist me”.

So in other words, a non-tournament placing, self-proclaimed representative of the entire pro community (who was actually only one of four advisors on the “Assist Me” video) has argued this point using his own “superior knowledge” as sole evidence. All the evidence I used to support my claim is based on the frame data, extensive testing at home, and personal experience regarding my own battles with Zero players. You folks be the judge…

Argument 1: Zero can touch of Death, Jill cannot.
My opinion? Irrelevant.
Zero can produce a 2 bar death combo on Jill, whereas Jill cannot do this to Zero (though with assists/DHC, she can). It is true. This needs to be pointed out due to the fact that it is a solid argument in Zeros favor.

My counterpoint to this is that in SF2 Turbo (where almost all fighting strat originiated) Guile could death combo Dhalsim, but a cautious and careful Sim could slowly take down Guile. Thus, the matchup is actually in Sims favor. SF2T Guile v Sim is a perfect metaphor for my beliefs regarding Jill v Zero: death combos are not the whole story. Thank you, John Rambo.
(There are lots of other examples like this in various fighting games).

Argument 2: Zero has better normals and is faster.
My opinion? False false FALSE.
In regards to basic offense and tactics, almost nothing Zero has can work against Jill:
First off, nobody can jump in on Jill. Her somersault is invincible, and thus beats out any attempt Zero makes at jumping in. It takes 11 frames for Jill to activate feral cancel-invincible somersault. Within range, the following Zero moves are slower: s.H (12), cr.H(14), shippuga(15), j.H(11), j.S(13), hadangeki L(18)…H(14). This is not counting the additional frames it takes to jump/dash/anything.

Somersault is also a booty way to escape raw Raikosen (air lightening thingy) crossups, in general. The auto correct does not always happen so punish is inconsistent and dependent on both of their positions. A trade will occur in rare instances.

On the ground, Jills rapid fire L and cr.L are faster than Zero. The rest of the moves are a give and take between the two in terms of speed or priority. In general, Jill has more moves that are faster.
She can wave dash and he cannot. Her command dash/teleport is easily faster than Zeros. Once she is up in his face, he will not be able to run away without excessive advancing guard.
In regards to priority, some moves beat others and it is basically a trade off with the exception of Arrow Kick, which beats every single non projectile normal/special Zero has. The only exception is Zeros s.H (with about a 5 frame window).

It is also worth noting that while Zeros j.H is still godly, a Jill j.L and j.M can actually knock him out of it from natural range (natural range = starting positions). She can sometimes connect a combo off of j.M but never j.L in this scenario.

Argument 3: Zero can lock Jill down on the ground with blockstrings/crossups
My opinion? No opinion required, the facts speak for themselves…
After blocked ground string, Zero is not safe to use Hienkyaku (command dash) L , M, or H crossups without coverage from an assist (certain assists still guarantee no safety). No matter what move he does afterwards, the long recovery of hienkyaku L/H gives jill over 20 frames to react, almost enough time to fc somersault twice.

Hienkyaku also does not cancel to buster. It takes over 26 frames for Hienkyaku L to dash behind and buster. Somersualt fully punishes. Hienkyaku H-anything is punishable with flip kick and somersault. Somersault auto corrects and zero does not hit her from behind with j.H crossup attempts. Flip kicks hitbox swats him clean out of the air. Finally, Hienkyaku M(which puts him safely out of range of jill) has 35 frames of recovery. Jill Feral cancel to side teleport takes only 22-29, giving her more than enough frames to connect a free st.L, and exactly enough to score cr.L.

Conversely, Jills various teleport crossups/mixups/headgames are relatively safe against Zero. Zero has very little to protect himself outside of advancing guard or assist based defense. Jill also posses her command overhead, which cancels to invincible somersault at frame 27 (ideally, this is Zeros safest time to punish).

On the ground, Zeros only safe blocked endings are shippuga(+4) or lv3 buster(+2). After shippuga, he can throw a s.L, which must be blocked by Jill. Anything else and Jill can escape or punish. His only other safe alternative is to Hienkyaku H, cancel to air dash, and back away.

Argument 4: Zero can just outzone Jill with Sogenmu lockdown
My opinion? Half true.****
Zeros sogenmu/hadangeki/buster spam is vicious against anyone, not just Jill. It is inescapable after blocking the first hit, and Jill suffers alot of chip/lockdown. This argument is tricky, because it does basically give Zero a big advantage. The problem is that, just like anyone else, Jill can escape with superjump or jump block/air recovery, resulting in a wasted bar for Zero.

Jill can also spend a bar and use Invincible Machine Guns to punish/escape. With just one bar it is a guaranteed escape for Jill. It may not do alot of damage, but breaks Zeros momentum. Also, from any range, it creates so much hitstun that nearly any projectile DHC in the game will connect. This scenario can technically work for both Zero/Jill, but in my opinion is easily dodgeable by anyone, and with two bars, can lead to massive damage to Zero, or death.

Argument 5: Zero can just hover in the air and outzone Jill
My opinion? Half true.
As a Zero player against Jill, this is definitely what you want to be doing. A novice/intermediate Jill is screwed in this scenario. However, Zeros zoning tools are far from the best in the game, and the higher the level of play gets, the less effective these tools become…

Jill possesses her invincible side teleports/cr.M slidekick/arrow kick, which are extremely fast and can dodge the predictable trajectory of Zeros Buster with quite a bit of ease. Buster is Zeros only air zoning tool, and it must be charged. A blocked lv3 buster chips 1/24 Jills health bar. That is alot of charging!

Most people also do not know that Jill can feral cancel -somersault-feral cancel in order to completely dodge a lv3 buster shot, giving her a big advantage. The timing is a little tricky, but it is a clean dodge and specifically works on fast projectiles.

If Zero does not cover with assist, Fc-somersault-fc-somersault even survives (and technically) punishes zeros raikosen M-lv3 buster-raikosen L approach (standard technique) without her even needing to block, and with no chip damage suffered. See how all of Zeros techniques barely work on a smart Jill?

Finally, against an airbone Zero: Jill has Invincible Machine Guns, which results in a grounded Zero, no matter where he is in the air. DHCs out of Machine Guns are inconsistent when hitting an airborne opponent, but still connect most of the time. Regardless, the point is that Zero cannot stay in the air indefinitely. He has to come down to the ground, where Jill is faster and better overall.

Conclusion:
As you can see, there are countless justifications for why I feel the matchup is in Jills favor. As long as a Jill player plays cautiously and smart, she will eventually overcome Zeros constant attempts to cheese her. Her somersault automatically halves the value of his offense, and his better techniques still have ways to be gotten around or punished. Certain assists can definitely change the dynamic of these situations, but the same could be said of many matchups in this game. That is the brilliance of UMVC3s design.

I am really interested to see just what the community actually thinks about this, especially some of the pro Zero and Jill players out there. Please throw your hat in and consider the data, or just join NonSexualRice in his trollathon. I do not mind. I did my best to maintain objective reporting, and if there are corrections needed, let me know. I am fully aware that we are all still learning about this insanely complex game, and its many facets.

2

This argument would be a great center piece of discussion in this thread:

Sound arguments for Jill and certainly the Somersault kick does blow up a lot of buttons of Zero’s that most Zero players wouldn’t expect.

3

Jill hates two things, a character that can challenger her up close, and a character that can basically win the match from up at super jump height. Zero is one of the best at both. He is one of the characters that can bully Jill with his normals and he can lame her out all day, Sognemu or no. This matchup is hugely slanted in Zero’s favor, at least 7-3, if not 8-2. You can bring select assist to help things (my favorite being jam session), but they only help a little.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that Zero is Jill’s worst matchup in the entire game. She can totally beat Zero if she gets in and mixes him up, but those are two really, really, really big ifs if the Zero player is on point.

4

OP says Jill is definitely in favor against Zero, FlyingVe says the complete opposite. I see potential for good debate here. Its hard to imagine a character with better normals than Zero, but we’ll see.

5

I am sure nearly every Jill will say this matchup is ass. I mean know this topic was in GameFAQs transferred into SRK, but I don’t see why Jill wins. .Even the Jill players at GameFAQs think this one of the hardest matchups for Jill.

FlyingVe isn’t alone on this opinion at all.

6

OP has posted his wrong opinions over there plenty of times and no one should take him seriously.

I mean you must be some special kind of ignorant when you think Jill has better normals than Zero.

7

Argument #1 doesn’t mean much of anything. Player skill undoubtedly decides a good bit of who wins a match, but with two even-skilled people the better character is more than likely winning.

Argument #2 is outright wrong. Jill’s normals are far worse than Zero’s, due to a dis-jointed hitbox and higher-priority, multiple-hitting normals. Zero is far faster in the air, this is truth. Jill can compete with Zero in speed if they both stay on the ground, which Zero won’t do.

Argument #3 is where you basically prove he CAN keep Jill locked down.

Argument #4 is entirely true. The only way Jill is getting out of it is if the Zero happens to fall asleep near Jill long enough for a Somersault to connect, or if she burns 2 meters and/or X-Factor to attempt to hit him. Neither are guaranteed counters.

Argument #5 is debatable. Jill can Somersault through and cancel the cool-down frames of it with a feral cancel. However, if Zero’s on the ground he simply uses Sougenmu the second Somersault whiffs and he punishes, dead Jill. If not then he’s probably going to be higher in the air than Somersault hits, or he can use Buster to stop his momentum to avoid it.

Argument #6, which you so cleverly left out, is that Jill cannot combo Zero normally. I’ve experienced this myself, her M attacks won’t work on him standing, her Flip Kick combos won’t work, really the best you can do is hope Zero runs into a raw Somersault and do jump loops. That is a very big advantage for Zero, as he can combo everyone, Jill cannot.

8

Oh boy this is goin to be FUUN!

Greetings. I am making this post in the hopes that a few pros (and many others) will weigh in on an argument that began between NonSexualRice and I regarding the Jill v Zero matchup. It goes without saying that very little is understood regarding Jills matchups, since to this day not a single Jill player has consistently shown dominance with her in a tournament. Much like many other characters, she is simply undersold while the community focuses on easier to use characters during this games first few years.

Please note that Zero is undoubtedly the superior character as far as the grand scheme of UMVC3. I am just a firm believer that Jill possesses an advantage in this matchup as long as she plays cautiously and smart. For every piece of cheese Zero can throw, Jill has an effective countermeasure. The fact that aplayer has yet to achieve this level of high end execution with Jill is irrelevant, and pretty much the only reason people think Zero wins this matchup. As you will read, the data alone supports my claims.

In regards to this matchup, NonSexualRice had this to say:
-Anyone with half a brain knows Jill loses.
-I’m a scrub, and the dumbest poster he has ever met.
-Most of the entire UMVC3 community (which he represents) agrees with him.
-All pro Jill players agree with him (including himself, and he also directly cited Clockwork).
-He has written “millions” of guides. He also “practically created all the gameplay in Max Jill Assist me”.

Once again, Created the guide for assist me. When someone spouts “Who the hell am I” and " You seem to be a poster who only plays Jill once in awhile" blah blah, your calling me out. and I reserve the right to hold my stance as a Jill user, and one that rights countless guides time after time on Gamefaqs. Once again, I have created tons and tons of guides on Jill.
You said blantantly: “Jill destroys Zero” LOL WUT.

So in other words, a non-tournament placing, self-proclaimed representative of the entire pro community (who was actually only one of four advisors on the “Assist Me” video) has argued this point using his own “superior knowledge” as sole evidence. All the evidence I used to support my claim is based on the frame data, extensive testing at home, and personal experience regarding my own battles with Zero players. You folks be the judge…

Getting Married soon son, Have no time to go to tournaments/travel.

Argument 1: Zero can touch of Death, Jill cannot.
My opinion? Irrelevant.
Zero can produce a 2 bar death combo on Jill, whereas Jill cannot do this to Zero (though with assists/DHC, she can). It is true. This needs to be pointed out due to the fact that it is a solid argument in Zeros favor.

My counterpoint to this is that in SF2 Turbo (where almost all fighting strat originiated) Guile could death combo Dhalsim, but a cautious and careful Sim could slowly take down Guile. Thus, the matchup is actually in Sims favor. SF2T Guile v Sim is a perfect metaphor for my beliefs regarding Jill v Zero: death combos are not the whole story. Thank you, John Rambo.
(There are lots of other examples like this in various fighting games).

Wut. Jill cannot slowly take down Zero. Zero on the other hand, can constantly zone out Jill and apply pressure while getting a TOD off a single hit confirm.

Argument 2: Zero has better normals and is faster.
My opinion? False false FALSE.
In regards to basic offense and tactics, almost nothing Zero has can work against Jill:
LOL. K.
First off, nobody can jump in on Jill. Her somersault is invincible, and thus beats out any attempt Zero makes at jumping in. It takes 11 frames for Jill to activate feral cancel-invincible somersault. Within range, the following Zero moves are slower: s.H (12), cr.H(14), shippuga(15), j.H(11), j.S(13), hadangeki L(18)…H(14). This is not counting the additional frames it takes to jump/dash/anything.

Have Fun Somersaulting and Going into Feral Crouch while his assists are putting down Pressure. ITP: We are activating somersault at it’s first possible frame.

Somersault is also a booty way to escape raw Raikosen (air lightening thingy) crossups, in general. The auto correct does not always happen so punish is inconsistent and dependent on both of their positions. A trade will occur in rare instances.

On the ground, Jills rapid fire L and cr.L are faster than Zero. The rest of the moves are a give and take between the two in terms of speed or priority. In general, Jill has more moves that are faster.
She can wave dash and he cannot. Her command dash/teleport is easily faster than Zeros. Once she is up in his face, he will not be able to run away without excessive advancing guard.

err. So? Cr.L and Rapid fire L both destroy jill’s damage output, and adding the fact that Zero’s hitbox is weird, no doubt he will survive the combo. Once Jill is up in Zero’s face, he can just buster and cancel to create more distance between the two.

In regards to priority, some moves beat others and it is basically a trade off with the exception of Arrow Kick, which beats every single non projectile normal/special Zero has. The only exception is Zeros s.H (with about a 5 frame window).

It is also worth noting that while Zeros j.H is still godly, a Jill j.L and j.M can actually knock him out of it from natural range (natural range = starting positions). She can sometimes connect a combo off of j.M but never j.L in this scenario.

This is theory crafting at it’s best. NEUTRAL Range. Zero will never be played on anything but point and being at starting positions isn’t going to happen due to his assists either.
Argument 3: Zero can lock Jill down on the ground with blockstrings/crossups
My opinion? No opinion required, the facts speak for themselves…
After blocked ground string, Zero is not safe to use Hienkyaku (command dash) L , M, or H crossups without coverage from an assist (certain assists still guarantee no safety). No matter what move he does afterwards, the long recovery of hienkyaku L/H gives jill over 20 frames to react, almost enough time to fc somersault twice.

Hienkyaku also does not cancel to buster. It takes over 26 frames for Hienkyaku L to dash behind and buster. Somersualt fully punishes. Hienkyaku H-anything is punishable with flip kick and somersault. Somersault auto corrects and zero does not hit her from behind with j.H crossup attempts. Flip kicks hitbox swats him clean out of the air. Finally, Hienkyaku M(which puts him safely out of range of jill) has 35 frames of recovery. Jill Feral cancel to side teleport takes only 22-29, giving her more than enough frames to connect a free st.L, and exactly enough to score cr.L.

Conversely, Jills various teleport crossups/mixups/headgames are relatively safe against Zero. Zero has very little to protect himself outside of advancing guard or assist based defense. Jill also posses her command overhead, which cancels to invincible somersault at frame 27 (ideally, this is Zeros safest time to punish).

On the ground, Zeros only safe blocked endings are shippuga(+4) or lv3 buster(+2). After shippuga, he can throw a s.L, which must be blocked by Jill. Anything else and Jill can escape or punish. His only other safe alternative is to Hienkyaku H, cancel to air dash, and back away.

ITP: We forget that Zero’s going to have Assists covering him for each Teleport. We also forget that he’s always played on point. ITP we also forget that Zero’s hitbox is so weird and half-assed that Jump loops on Zero both on the air and ground are unreliable and tend to drop leaving jill in a bad situation.

Argument 4: Zero can just outzone Jill with Sogenmu lockdown
My opinion? Half true.
Zeros sogenmu/hadangeki/buster spam is vicious against anyone, not just Jill. It is inescapable after blocking the first hit, and Jill suffers alot of chip/lockdown.

**Thanks for supporting my argument dude. It’s reaallly helping your case out. Jill has low HP, Low HP and eating Chip do not go together. Understand? **

This argument is tricky, because it does basically give Zero a big advantage.

**Thanks again. **

The problem is that, just like anyone else, Jill can escape with superjump or jump block/air recovery, resulting in a wasted bar for Zero.

Jill can also spend a bar and use Invincible Machine Guns to punish/escape. With just one bar it is a guaranteed escape for Jill. It may not do alot of damage, but breaks Zeros momentum. Also, from any range, it creates so much hitstun that nearly any projectile DHC in the game will connect. This scenario can technically work for both Zero/Jill, but in my opinion is easily dodgeable by anyone, and with two bars, can lead to massive damage to Zero, or death.

Hell, let’s say you do it before the spam does from Full Screen. Congrats, you just did 30,000 to Zero. Also Songemnu says Hi. What’s stopping Zero from just Songemnu+DHCing? You can’t just consider Jill has bars and Zero (who’s a better meter builder) doesn’t.
ITP: Zero’s not being played on point and does not have a superior Neutral game then Jill.

Argument 5: Zero can just hover in the air and outzone Jill
My opinion? Half true.
As a Zero player against Jill, this is definitely what you want to be doing. A novice/intermediate Jill is screwed in this scenario. However, Zeros zoning tools are far from the best in the game, and the higher the level of play gets, the less effective these tools become….

WUT

Jill possesses her invincible side teleports/cr.M slidekick (Woah, slide’s invincible? since when?)/arrow kick, which are extremely fast and can dodge the predictable trajectory of Zeros Buster with quite a bit of ease.

**The trajectory is Predictable, but the time in which Zero throws one out is not predictable at all. **

Buster is Zeros only air zoning tool, and it must be charged. A blocked lv3 buster chips 1/24 Jills health bar. That is alot of charging!

**Raikozen’s that crossup and lead to full combos say high. Blocking the buster is not the only thing that’s going to be going on in the slightest. **
Most people also do not know that Jill can feral cancel -somersault-feral cancel in order to completely dodge a lv3 buster shot, giving her a big advantage. The timing is a little tricky, but it is a clean dodge and specifically works on fast projectiles.

Cool, she dodged a buster shot. So what? He’s not just throwing them out and saying “Ok, you owned me with that CRAAAZY JILL TECH, I’ll just stand still and let you beat me”

**That’s not giving her a Big advantage. Cool, she dodged a buster shot, now she has to dodge what comes next. Crossup Raikozen says hello, Teleport to the ground says hello as well. Plus, let’s say you fail, Your eating a buster shot, or at best you have to face the recovery of her somersault. **

If Zero does not cover with assist, Fc-somersault-fc-somersault even survives (and technically) punishes zeros raikosen M-lv3 buster-raikosen L approach (standard technique) without her even needing to block, and with no chip damage suffered. See how all of Zeros techniques barely work on a smart Jill?

“IF” Zero will be covered by assists. Zero will always be covered by assists He’s only played on Point.

Finally, against an airbone Zero: Jill has Invincible Machine Guns, which results in a grounded Zero, no matter where he is in the air. DHCs out of Machine Guns are inconsistent when hitting an airborne opponent, but still connect most of the time. Regardless, the point is that Zero cannot stay in the air indefinitely. He has to come down to the ground, where Jill is faster and better overall.

Once again Zero’s odd hitbox. Makes both the Damage and the DHC out of it even more inconsistant.

Conclusion:
As you can see, there are countless justifications for why I feel the matchup is in Jills favor. As long as a Jill player plays cautiously and smart, she will eventually overcome Zeros constant attempts to cheese her. Her somersault automatically halves the value of his offense, and his better techniques still have ways to be gotten around or punished.

Certain assists can definitely change the dynamic of these situations, but the same could be said of many matchups in this game. That is the brilliance of UMVC3s design.

**Certain assists only if anything make it 7-3 in Zero’s favour. **

Zero’s not playing like a dumbass either buddy. Somersault is not the be all, end all of her problems. One wrong somersault and Jill is not only eating the consequence of dishing one out (Recovery frames) if not feral Crouch canceled, but death as well.

I am really interested to see just what the community actually thinks about this, especially some of the pro Zero and Jill players out there. Please throw your hat in and consider the data, or just join NonSexualRice in his trollathon. I do not mind. I did my best to maintain objective reporting, and if there are corrections needed, let me know. I am fully aware that we are all still learning about this insanely complex game, and its many facets.

"Trollathon"? You said JILL DESTROYS ZERO. Get the hell out of here. Love how you totally ignored my “Jill’s M whiffs on Zero” argument as well. Cool beans.

To sum it all up: Neutral game baseless and nothing to go off of when you take Zero v Jill in account. Hell, In any other character v. Neutral game is ~3 seconds tops. Zero starts the match off with Pressure already (LOL BUSTER SHOT CALL ASSIST), Jill does not.

Also would love to add how you make the title “HIGH LEVEL Jill v Zero”

Ain’t so fair how your bias sinks in don’tcha think? When you do matchups, it’s a high level v. a high level; hell time and time again in your posts you assume Zero’s going to fall for Somersault over and over. High level players who know matchups will not fall for some.salt- set ups.

9

Lol. Did you make an account just for this?

10

Juggernaut > Jill & Zero siamese twins

11

Fix’d dat for ya sir.

12

No, but everyone thinks you are.

13

I dont think Luna is a retard and yall should try stay on topic

14

I dont even really see why the topic of Jil vs Zero is relevant…this is a TEAM game, and even though certain characters contribute much more to a team than others (Doom, Im looking at you), and others are selfish characters and require a team to be built around them ( Jean, Zero, etc), the only questions that should really matter are:

Which character can better contribute to a team ?

and

Which character can make the best use of his/her teammates?

If this was a 1v1 game (which contrary to what some people may believe, its not), Zero would clearly have an advantageous MU vs Jill. He does everything better than her except solo mixups…which is kinda a moot point for Jill, considering, again, that this is a TEAM game. Now lets see what happens if we give Jill two assists which help her vs Zero:

Vajra (for helping to negate his superjump game) and any lockdown / mixup assist…lets say…idk…drones I guess. or Cold Star. Whatever.

If Jill has these assists, and Zero has shitty assists like nemesis rocket launcher and oh I dont know, Wesker Jaguar kick, Jill would probably have a much better match vs him. Conversely, it goes the other way too. If both characters have assists that benefit them, Zero wins. He wins off a single touch. He gets free mixups / pressure. Hell, he can even play lame and just block / punish jill with charged buster > win. Jill cant do that. Yeah, shes got somersault, and yeah its great, but to think that you are going to be able to pull it off every time is just plain stupid. Zero has got shit to bait somersault too… Dive feint to bait the somersault > M / H dive > win. Zero just flat out beats Jill. Sorry. And im the biggest Jill supporter ever…shes my favorite character from any game. But I cant lie. Zero wins.

15

Greetings, again.

First off, can we stop with the “#-# in so and so’s favor” talk? People are literally smashing two numbers together. There is no way you can prove this madness. It is literally fabricated nonsense. I do not know where this fad came from but it is just plain silly. Whoever does that loses to intelligence 87,000-4, or 200-96, or 75-2,431 or…

@flyingVe: at superjump height, the only thing Zero can do is buster. It would take insane precision accuracy to land even a single buster on a grounded Jill from this height, assuming she stands completely still the whole time. Please, go to practice, superjump and try to hit someone with buster… Other than that, I suppose Zero can just hover around up there wishing Jill to death.

Zeros normals have range on Jill, but not speed. Up close, his range is useless but his speed is everything. Her normals are consistently faster (COUGH frame data) with a couple exceptions. I said this, go read my point again. I guess I worded it too openly, my bad.

Attacks like arrow kick still have priority over everything Zero has in the book, though. She also has relatively safe teleport crossups (as opposed to Zeros, which the frame data proves to be completely unsafe). Jill hates two things: an argument with a lack of any evidence backing it up at superjump height, and misunderstood arguments with inconclusive evidence on the ground.

@Stryke:
#1: …huh?
#2: I do not think that Jill has better normals than Zero. My contention was simply that her normals were (in some cases) faster, and that the belief that Zeros normals were better/faster was a myth.
#3 What? Lol. I mean…wait. I present a thesis paper filled with factual proof that Zero cannot lock down Jill on the ground, and you say that “no, it proves that he CAN”. Lol. Ya know what? Daylight proves that the sun does not exist, k?
#4. This whole sentence is just a garbled mesh of nonsense. The word somersault does not even appear in this portion of my argument. Please refer to the later portion of this post for EVEN MORE proof that my point is correct. No soup for you! Hehehe
#5. Wait…what? Doood. Do you seriously even read this stuff? This portion was about the air. Sogenmu… WHAT? So she dodges raikosen/lv3 buster and then somersaults raikosen…where does this magic, additional, uncharged lv3 buster come from?
#6 . . . facepalms
j.S-M-H-FC-Somersault-FC-Jumping Roundhouse-FC-(if not corner) teleport-FC-Somersault-delay-j.H-j.S-4H-Cartwheel-Somersault - 625- 650k Machine gun end or j.H-j.S 475k air reset. 575k jab start 610k somersault start… Seriously, what in gods name is wrong with you people? I cannot believe I am arguing with your proofless nonsense while simlutaneously explaining fundamental concepts like connecting a simple BnB! I’ve got about ten more that never drop on Zero (online, I stick to one that rounds out at 550k). You and NonSexual both say that Jills combos do not work on Zero.Change your combos. Max damage and looking fancy are not always the key.

You’ve totally misunderstood almost everything I posted. Try again.

@IronBoy: “Even the Jill players on gfaqs think this is one of the hardest matches for Jill” … you mean all three or four of them, including me? Wait, no, I dont think that. You mean two or three people… goes and reads topic title. WAIT, there might be six…

@mrmuffinwaffle
Try rereading the primary post again…slowly. Sound out the words… :smiley:
Faster normals, not better. Certain normals beat others, its “give and take” depending on the situation. I suppose my own wording might be the culprit, here, but geeeez.

@Nonsexual.

  1. Every statement you have is backed by literally no proof. It is like we are on the O’Reily factor, and as I continue to provide more evidence you just get louder and angrier, slamming papers down and screaming at me to shut up. Almost your entire argument qualifies as “I’m right because just because IDIOT!” followed by you throwing something.
    You twist, spin, misdirect, and constantly insult in the hopes that no one will ever notice your complete lack of even 1 fact. Moreover, half of your points are a result of you skimming over what I said, and then quickly rushing to contradict it. I could easily rest my case with just this.

  2. Not doubting your credentials, just pointing out your penchant for exaggeration. Your original statement was that you “practically created all the gameplay”, now its that you just “wrote the guide”? It is right to call out your distortions, since they embody your entire argument. Remember: you even identify yourself as a representative of the pro community (which you are admittedly not a part of).

Off-topic, but congrats on the wifey, btw. I’ve got real life stuff preventing me from being a pro, too. Respect…

  1. As far as Jill destroying Zero: I did say that. I got a little excited because of your ridiculously inflamatory and insulting arguments. What I meant was that Jill destroys the majority of Zeros tactics and techniques. This is very true and I have proven it (and will continue to prove it).

  2. Remember that one time? Where the topic was concerning a matchup and came with the disclaimer that assists “change the dynamic”?? That’s this time. So many of your statements use the assist cop out. points towards title…
    points towards countless statements regarding assists in my original post

  3. There you go again, using that “theory fighting” term again to try and discount my argument. Notice, for the bajillionth time, that you still have yet to do anything other than provide “if this and if that” scenarios as your argument…

  4. You’ve said numerous times that “Zero is always played on point” . Didn’t Marn play him in second? You’re an unknown Jill player spouting absolutes on how to play a character you do not even play… lol?

  5. I never use Jills jump loops unless I am trying to be a show off. They are just too unreliable and ultra easy to drop. This is especially true online. Imo, they are totally for the birds in competetive play. I guess trusting reliable comobs is for noobs like me only…

  6. I noticed your topic you made to troll me on Gfaqs. You are calling people scrubs and arguing how Sogenmu completely destroys Jill, while pretending that the information in this topic does not exist. I figured I would supply a bit more info that further proves how full of fail the Sogenmu trap is, as well as your statements about it.

Check out how you worded your counterpoint:
“Hell, let’s say you do it before the spam does from Full Screen. Congrats, you just did 30,000 to Zero. Also Songemnu says Hi. What’s stopping Zero from just Songemnu+DHCing? You can’t just consider Jill has bars and Zero (who’s a better meter builder) doesn’t.
ITP: Zero’s not being played on point and does not have a superior Neutral game then Jill.”

(Please keep in mind that this is all assuming that Jill did not just superjump out of the way, causing Zero to waste 1 bar and get absolutely nothing.)
Sogenmu activates at the 11th frame. The three hadangekis: L(17), M(8), and (13), as well as buster (6) all mean that it will take (at absolute minimum) 17 frames before a single attack is actually active. Mind you, this is assuming that Jill is standing within point blank range of Zero and doing absolutely nothing for 17+ frames. At full screen, she gets 45+ frames to react, at medium range its around 30 frames. Machine Gun Punish is invincible on frame 1. Frame 1. The first. Uno. Even If Zero cancels lv3 buster to Sogenmu, Jill still has time to escape blockstun and activate machine guns.

A DHC out of Sogenmu is only possible for 12 frames. Based on the facts, even at point blank range, Jill has over 7 frames after Zero can no longer DHC to do something. At mid-full screen, she has over half a second before she needs to do anything. Your argument about DHCing only makes sense if Jill jumps the gun and immediately Machines guns the exact frame after she sees Zero Sogenmu.

Let’s also pretend that Zero Sogenmus, Jill Machine Guns, and Zero DHCs: No matter what hyper is DHCed into, Jills Machine Guns keep her invincible for 10-20 frames, and sprays for the next 40. She punishes whoever is coming in (unless its invincible). Your entire argument makes llittle sense, and is completely fabricated. It only works if someone does not actually investigate the truth, much like a good majority of what you keep saying to people.
…Oh yeah, at maximum range, Machine Gun punish on Sogenmu does 75k. At natural range, it does 100-120k. Nice distortion of the facts…again.

  1. The final fail which I will speak upon (today at least) is that I am assuming the Zero player will be just walking into Somersaults. Its quite the contrary. I take a Zero tactic, and see that Jill can punish it. Thus, a smart Zero player will not do it. It is a question of elimination. As we continue this discussion, Zero has less and less he can do against Jill. You have got me all wrong.

Oh yah, and the title infers that both Zero and Jill are high level, not high level Jill versus low Level Zero. You are seriously clutching at straws.

@Mr. STARS. Duly noted. Now go into the tier discussion and tell them the same thing. Now go to every matchup thread and point that out. Hey wait, did you just argue that Jill loses to Zero after saying this argument is pointless? lol
points towards NonSexual retort, subsection 4
Seriously though: baiting the somersault via Sentsuizan/Buster Cancel/Follow up? Now THAT is clever. I have never seen anyone try that on me. The only trouble I am seeing with that is you would have to buster cancel pretty high to avoid the Somersault, thus negating the feint against calm Jills. Twitchy Jills will fall for this hands down. I must investigate… this actually makes total sense as a viable counter to Jills bs.

Forgive my overall tone. I am certain it is harsh. I am pretty drunk and tired. I just really want some real players to come in here and prove me wrong, using something other than blah blah blah youre wrong.

You see, I rely on things called FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFacts to back up the majority of my logic, not just words and random catch phrases/terminology that present the illusion of pro status and knowledge. People like to throw around all this stuff and play pretend, but inventing concepts and slanting reality is for politicians. Let’s just focus on cold hard data, k? I challenge all of you to provide even a tiny shred of factual proof that backs up anything you say. I triple dog dare you…
Facts beat calling someone a scrub 27-3
Im tired. Good night.

16

Speed isnt THAT big of a factor when it comes to normals, hitbox, priority and frame advantage are all just as important and zero is superior in every one, might’ve been different if his normals were very slow but thats not the case they have good speed jill’s normals are just a little faster.

Also avoiding lvl3 buster isnt that easy, its fast, has a big hitbox and if used with raikousen you can cover a big part of the screen. Not to mention that there are plenty of things that zero can do to stay in the air and throw off your timing so you dont rly know when the buster is coming, both somersault and jill’s command dash are unsafe if you mess up the timing. Another problem is that even if you manage to avoid it using those methods you still cant punish zero, he recovers very shortly after firing the buster.

Jill might be very safe on block but when it comes to getting in against zoning she’s not safe at all. Most of her tactics involve FC, FC has 10 frames start up where you’re completely vulnerable. Somersault has over 20 frames of recovery after the invincibility and even if you’re fast enough to FC out of it thats still 10 vulnerable frames. Command dash has 9 frames of start up not to mention the FC start up you have to go through to be able to dash in the first place. What else are you going to do? arrow kick is useless because zero wont be on the ground unless he’s throwing out projectiles which beat out arrow kick. Super jumping is just as bad because super jumping with a character that doesnt have any air options basically means that you’re leaving yourself wide open for a (safe) AA, a grab or at the very least giving the other player plenty of time to dash to the other side.

Anyway you’ve heard all of this before so this seems like a waste of time, every jill player you’ve asked disagrees with you including ppl who are clearly more experienced, its obvious that nothing can be said to change your mind so lets just move on.

17

#1: If the world’s best Wesker play and the world’s best Hsien-ko fight each other, the Wesker player will win most of the time. This is factoring in lucky hits, you know, random things. If two people of equal skill fight each other, the one using the better character will win. You’re exclaiming that so long as the lesser character is played carefully, the lesser player will win. This is only the case if the greater character is played recklessly, which if he’s of equal skill to the other player, that’s not going to be the case.

#2:

You also are ignoring the fact that Zero’s disjointed, MULTIPLE-HIT normals will beat Jill’s. A few of Jill’s attacks may come out faster, but Zero will also be in range before Jill is.

#3:

So he can’t keep her locked down, unless he does several things to give him the better neutral. He might as well never let her move. Of course, you’ve said it yourself, he has two safe block-strings, both of which ignore advance guard.
You’re also forgetting Sougenmu and Hadek…Hagdek…Saber spam >_>;

#4: You’re saying the only way Jill is getting out, is if she goes into the air(the place you NEVER want to be as Jill outside of combos/feral dash-height), or burns a meter to MGS. DHC is not an option here, this is a 1-on1 encounter.
“Oh, well she can XFC MGS into a combo”. This is true, let me do that no–ohwait I whiffed s.M. I presented, ironically, her best option, which still wouldn’t work.

#5: His buster and lightning/dashes have Jill beat. If Zero is in the air, Jill isn’t winning. A good Zero will not get hit with Somersault, instead he’ll bait it and stop his momentum to avoid getting hit. If Zero is on the ground, she has to contend with his superior normals/specials(Somersault being the only superior move of Jill’s). Zero can lame Jill out.

#6: Great, you may or may not have found a way to connect with a s.M. You’ve now hit Zero for 60-70% of his life. Do it again before he OHKO’s Jill.

Not going to happen unless the Zero player chokes.

18

@Neo
:*) your argument actually makes sense and even incorporates frame data. Thank you for actually trying.

You are correct, her normals are only a little faster. Zeros normals are fantastic and, as previously stated, I suppose my wording came off as too open and did not pay enough attention to that. I was simply trying to defend JIlls, not discount Zeros. You are correct, priority and frame advantage are both a little more important than speed.

In terms of frame advantage, Zero only possess that upon using Shippuga (+4) or lv3 buster(+2), tiger kneed Raikousen L,M (+17,+4), and tiger kneed Sentsuizan M,H (+8) . That is it… Jill, on the other hand gains frame advantage from sickle kick (+7), all three tiger knee’d knee drops (+8,+13,+5), as well as feral cancelling st.H, cr.H, cr.M, 4H, flip kick, cartwheel , arrow kick, jumping roundhouse, low sweep, and somersault. Each of these FC cancels can yield advantages ranging from +2 to as far as +10 and beyond, depending on where it is cancelled. Her entire ground game is safer and faster on block.

That being said, the priority of Jill v Zero ground attacks is (as noted earlier) kind of give and take. Go ahead and try it out, its not easy to determine because Zeros range is actually what determines this stuff. A good example here is Zero s.H:
-If you define priority purely based on range, then yes Zeros s.H is unbeatable. (Priority and range are not the same thing, unfortunately).
-If you define priority by which move beats the other frame wise, it still loses to all of Jills ground normals, fc somersault, fc low sweep, fallen prey, position change, and so on.
-If you define prioirity (like me) as two colliding moves in their active frames, it trades evenly with all of Jills ground normals. It also loses to flip kick at close range, and arrow kick at long range, though it CAN trade with arrow kick for roughly 5 frames.

Now, if Zero is standing further back, his s.H suddenly beats pretty much anything due to Jills short range. Zeros only advantage on the ground is range. His normals are slower and there are seemingly no priority advantages. Once again, arrow kick is the highest prioirity, non-projectile between the two of them(including all air attacks as well). The point is, Jills ground game is defininitively superior.

So, we move back up to the air with Zero trying to zone Jill out and beat her with his priority air normals, again. First off, further testing indicates Jills jump jab has priority over all of Zeros air normals (resulting in, at bare minimum, a trade), and CAN convert to combo: j.L-j.H-delay-j.S-H-4H-Cartwheel-Somersault-475k Machine Gun end is a real simple example. I just figured this out an hour ago and have not developed a reliable and high damaging combo. Give me some more time to get the damage back up around 550-600k, where it should be.

Yes, it is true, Lv3 buster is not the easiest thing to dodge, but Jill still possesses a complete and clean dodge, which leaves her in a perfect position to punish any incoming follow up. It also takes 24 busters to chip her to death, so it is not exactly the scariest thing on block. He also doesn’t have any follow ups to this that cannot be punished, as my argument continues to showcase.

Sure, her command dash around takes 11 frames to activate, and safely moves her out of the way, but she also posseses an incredibly fast and solid wavedash, not to mention the Dhalsim slide (cr.M) to throw off accuracy even further. Buster is hard to anticipate, but Jill is so fast and has such odd movement that she dart around beneath Zero while he clumsily tries to put her back in range. Any attempts he makes to drop down on her are dangerous. The game becomes a twitchy dance between two great players. One day, when an exceptional Jill player finally emerges in the pro community, you will see this type of situation occur. Incidentally, this is also how the matchup versus morrigan works out until she uses astral vision zoning (COUGH machine guns).

Lets talk for a half second about buster cancel to raikosen approaches. Raikosen takes 30 frames to activate (it takes over 40 before the lightening is even close to the ground). Lets pretend that Jill simply blocks the buster instead of fancy dodging with fc-somersault-fc. This leaves Zero at +2 advantage. Jill still has over 28 frames to feral cancel somersault punish a raikosen. She also still has time to fc command dash away safely, or just backdash or…

…Ready for this one? Jills jab knocks him out of raikosen post blocked buster. s.M,s.H,4H,S, knock him out of it and convert to full combos 95% of the time(he needs maximum range for this to fail). 100% of the time, cr.M beats it out and converts to combo (at ultra close range, it simply escapes but also gives Jill 15 frames to punish Zeros recovery). Cr.M also slides beneath most beam assists that can back this tactic up, mooting alot of assist based arguments.

…By the way, you all should probably be writing this down, there may be a quiz later.

Soooooooo, Zero activates Sogenmu and tries to cheese with projectiles, Jill superjumps to escape. I do not see how this is some kind of guaranteed doom for her unless she forgets how to block or break away from obligatory throws. Super jumping is so bad that pros do it all the time…?
points at topic title

“Anyway you’ve heard all of this before so this seems like a waste of time, every jill player you’ve asked disagrees with you including ppl who are clearly more experienced, its obvious that nothing can be said to change your mind so lets just move on.”

See? now you are starting to sound like NonSexualRice. I have heard all this before, as in misinformed theories that have little proof backing them coupled with slanted realities and half truths. “Lets move on”, could there be a more obvious cop out? Why move on? You fellas just keep supplying me springboards for me to add to my growing pile of data and proof that supports supports my claims, lol. Every jill player disagrees with me, if by every jill player you mean less than ten players, none of which are part of the high level scene.
points to topic title…again :frowning:

… :smiley:

Lol I cannot believe that I’m being told of my own lack of knowledge while I am simultaneously teaching you things that you did not even know. Its hilarious. I am like Copernicus trying to explain to you people that the sun is the center of the galaxy while you all just scream "Throw him in jail. He is wrong because just because!!!"
I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. Produce more proof, or just give up and accept this learning experience.
:stuck_out_tongue:

19

Yall are still trying to argue for both characters in the sense of a 1v1 game. Assists play an enormous role in this, and EVERY, matchup.

20

@Stryke:
If you read my #1 point, I am actually discussing that certain characters are designed with advantages over others. In other words, the best character in a game can still have design flaws that suffer when fighting a single specific character (even if they are the worst in the game). The term “counter pick” defines this. You’re still totally misunderstanding me.

For your** #2** retort, please refer to my post @Neo.

For your #3 retort…well: “unless he does several things that give him better neutral”. What does that even mean?
Please refer to my initial post, where I show that there is little to anything he can do. L-M-H-Shippuga…L-M-H-Shippuga…etc is his safest option, this is only assuming Jill does not advancing guard. By the way, nothing Zero does is “immune to advancing guard” . You are making that up… Outside of the corner, Advancing guard-Arrow Kick punishes this stuff unequivocally. In the corner, as long as she advancing guards a Zero M or cr.H, she can also retaliate with various punishes.
Please refer to all my posts for several paragraphs (backed up via data) as to why I did not forget Sogenmu cheese, and why it is not really an issue against a smart Jill.

For your #4 retort…Can’t use DHC? Ok. Shes still safe as long as she either superjumps or Machine Guns. This whole XFC Machine gun to combo business is from Gfaqs players arguing with NonSexual in his troll topic (made for me <3). I have never said this. It does not work. winks
BTW you are still under the belief that Jills combos whiff against Zero. The actual true statement is that YOUR Jill combos whiff. My combos connect because I pay close attention to matchups and alter my gameplay to suit them.

Not safe in the air? Why not? No air blocking? Is this Street Fighter? Break Aways don’t work? I’m sorry. What are you trying to say? You are just distorting facts, again. I NEVER want to be at that height? What about if I’m tricking a foolish zero into wasting a bar on Sogenmu spam? lol. Speaking in absolutes is a dangerous game, my friend. They might get bionic armed.
Incidentally, Sogenmu spamming Zero is going to late superjump (at best) against an already superjumping Jill. I mean, if you really want to split hairs over it…

For your #5 retort, please refer to my post @Neo, where I supply sufficient info to prove that buster/raikosen is dangerous and innefective against a smart Jill, including when covered with beam assist.
Also, the baiting the somersault with canceled sentsuizan is actually pretty darn cool. I will agree with that. However, it still needs sufficient testing to produce a real opinion. At this stage in the game, he’d have to cancel his feint very high and just run away, as an immediate follow up raikosen or Sentsuizan will result in the tail end of Jills somersault connecting. He also cannot buster this, since he already wasted it just to cancel his initial sentsuizan.

For your #6 retort. Well, thats not a retort. Its simply you trying to contradict me because you do not want to accept being wrong.
There are also two examples of you denying the existence of something I have said and then (about a few sentences later), reffering directly to its existence or indirectly supporting it. In your #3 retort you tell me I forgot about Sogenmu cheese, but then refference my various sogenmu based arguments for the remainder of your post. In your #4 retort, you again make refference to the “Jill drops combos on zero” illusion, and then in your retort #6 you admit that it is not true.

hehehehehe…NEXT!