There comes the thing all Abels cry about in Vega MU: cl.hp after step kick whiffs on Vega. I saw it in their discussion.
What? Step kick into cl.hp is Abel’s bnb, what are you talking about?
Yeah, it whiffs on idle Vega. It hits if you press any button, and blocking Vega’s hitbox is taller, so you also have to block both hits. But yes, it’s true that Abel doesn’t get step kick, cl.hp combo on crouching Vega. He can still use it to fish for a counterhit, though.
Thats why good Abels aways go to cl.MP.
Its worth it to sacrifice the damage in order to always land the combo.
Thats why good Abels aways go to cl.MP.
Its worth it to sacrifice the damage in order to always land the combo.
Damn, a character whose hard punch starts faster than light one. X_X
About the clHP whiffing on crouching Claw, it’s true, I’ve seen this in my fights against AngeReveur. However, second hit does connect (but is blocked).
There is still a way in which Abel player can land a link into clHP, that being their normals who force stand, which include their overhead (clHK), which is +4 only against crouching opponents.
Stepkick is 7 frames startup. After a blocked cLP/cLK. Theorical gap is 4 fs for cLP and 6 fs for cLK, but i wondering if it’s not lesser considering those lights are cancelable (just as Rose’s cLP into cLK, which is theorically impossible).
OK, so according to all data we’ve gathered here :
— Stepkick is +1/+4. Proof being they could link into clHP after it (against standing Vega).They usually go for it after 2 or 3 blocked cLP/cLK.
— After stepkick they could go into Tornado throw (beating throws), clHP (4 fs, whiffs on crouching, great for counterhits) or clMP (5 fs, but no whiff). According to what BoIndians and AngeReveur did, its most of the time a clHP/tornado throw mix-up.
So our options :
— Throw would beat clMP/jabs, but not Tornado throw, and hard to say against clHP. Even if it worked against clHP, it’s a 50/50 defense at best 'cause of tornado.
— Backdash would beat Tornado, jabs (but they do not go for them often), but not clHP neither clMP
— Just block would stand clHP, jabs, and clMP, but it’s still as much 50/50 than throw due to Tornado
We could try so other moves :
— KKK flip : clHP is 36 frames long, and shortest Tornado is 45, so that does leave us respectively at -6 and +3, becoming -7 and +2 due to stepckick advantage. which is acceptable if not foreseen.
— cLK : cLK’s hitbox looks as good, if not better than crouching idle. It could straight beat clHP if first hit still whiffs, and should be out at the same time than clMP or Tornados or jabs. If it works, that would mean they would have to spend a bar to go for EX tornado to get an acceptable mix-up…
Anyway, he must really be toasted against broken 3 frames jabs characters, only option being EX tornado.
I do wonder what happens if a normal is out at the same time than a throw/command grab…
The normal loses.
What I have always wondered is what happens when 2 command grabs “trade”.
Mmm. So that means if I throw and he clHP at +1, both being out at the same time, throw would win ?
Interesting to know. Maybe that’s why Uenis teched so much in fact.
It’s WWE.
Honestly, no idea. =D
But maybe Golfguden will know ?
cr.lk might work, but I’m not sure. I know it doesn’t work if Vega stand blocks the step kick, then only delayed cr.mk and cr.hk can force the cl.hp whiff (afaik), though the window is very small. Also, forcing a cl.hp whiff is incredibly risky and gimmicky and I know I’ve never gotten to use it in a match. Abel’s normal TT becomes active on the same frame as the cr.lk anyways, and will always beat it out. Still, crouchtech is always a defensive option one should keep in mind, and it’s definitely applicable after step kick since normal throws aren’t unheard of.
Regarding the command throw “trade”, the outcome is completely random. Yeah, it’s weird like that. Proof -> [media=youtube]0GMwJL8hjdc[/media]
Ok, so I’ve done a bit of lab practical testing :
— cLK gets counterhit everytime. Drop it.
— cMK & cHK get counterhit as well, even is Claw was crouching before. Maybe that’s because of his head who sticks a bit higher than idle crouching hitbox, dunno.
— Backdash gets reseted by clHP second hit, at our disadvantage
— KKK flip works as expected
— Stand tech OS tend to win over clHP if done early enough
— Surprisingly enough, HK-ST (and EX) tend to counterhit clHP if done reversal, or to trade with it at Claw’s advantage if done a bit later (and even later gets counterhit himself) . I tried several times to see if it wasn’t just my timing with recorded Abel dummy, but had the same results. It goes without saying it would beat a normal throw as well.If anyone could confirm that, it could be interesting MU knowledge.
According to this, best options against clHP/Tornado throw mix-ups post stepkick would be HK-ST and KKK flip. Stand tech/back-dash and pure block could be alternatives to avoid getting baited, but they’re 50/50 options if done alone. =)
Hi guys! how’s everyone haha
I haven’t played SFIVAE edition at all so i don’t know any of the newer notes on matchups
I need to see what vega can do to viper! i may have a money match against one of my scene newer players who thinks their hot shit at the moment! haha anything helps! good to see some of you guys are still on here! =)
Much love!
-ThaiVega
I’m sure you do know this, but just in case :
— Burning kick is a projectile and she is airborne longer due to super-jump : U1 is the ultra of choice against Viper
— EX-ST beats burning kick, even at wake-up
— Burning kicks can be focused
News from v2012 : EX seismo can be grabbed, so it’s no more the godlike reversal it used to be. =)
She still has a ton of ways to combo into ultra, so be careful with your openings (specially if she can seismo or cHP/sHP you).
If you are planning a wakeup meaty cl.hp cr.mp EX FBA is the best combo since it won’t get caught up in EX seismo like cr. mk cr. mp does
If you rush down far.lk should be your goto for starting block strings not cr.mk or cr.mp if they have meter
Do not focus if you are expecting her to rush down with knuckles…
If she is attempting to get in with jump ins you need to win air to air (this is how you build a lead on viper)
If she is attempting to get in with knuckles then burn kick you at the end of her strings jump back fierce is your friend
And do not hold down back!
Oh one more piece of advise … on your wakeup vipers do this gimmick where they hit you with one or two light moves to start a block string then burn kick that will cross you up
they mix that up with throw or just a regular old burn kick that hits you in the front… that burn kick comes after that boot jump thing and if you are crouching it wont hit you
if you backdash on wakeup or after a block string both of those burn kicks will hit you … so back dash is a huuuuge no no vs viper
Are you sure ? Why shouldn’t EX seismo hit a grounded opponent ?
If it’s about recovery, meaty clHP would be 24 frames long, when meaty cMK would be 10. So clHP would get caught in EX Seismo (who has 19 frames startup), and not cMK. Is that what you meant, or do I misunderstood something ?
Oh nothing to do with hit boxes hit number two of cl.HP will hit viper after her invincibility frames wear off but before her active frames begin. 
13 invincibility 19 startup for ex seismo
If you run your normal oki shenanigans like dash CH after izuna or dash CH or naked jump in after ST and their tech your second hit of cl.HP will hit frame 17 give or take a frame
So you force viper to use HP knuckles as a reversal and open herself up for better punishes if she just did an ex seismo as reversal option to your oki game which puts her at -2 and isn’t punishable
That’s the information I had missed. I understand now, thank you Meat tower. =)
Against Viper:
I have some knowledge at this MU as the no.1 Viper on PC is my friend and I’m able to beat him
I use U2. One missed burning kick, U1 or antiair means CH-U2 combo.
focusing burning kicks is a bad idea. you will focus on the opposite side and backdash will forward dash you to her arms or she will recover and hit you if your FADC is not quick enough.
She has terrible footsies. You have the best footsies in the game. Spam them on her. Viper players tend to not block.
Don’t stay at the same place and move constantly. Jump at all her super jumps from afar and slice her or grab her.
Just block correctly her burning kick cross-ups or do real quick FADC and do the right dash.
Bait things and let her do whiffed AAs.
Don’t focus any normal that can be canceled into burning kick.
Always crouch when far. That seismic is fast.
Neutral jump mp has a beatiful hitbox. Hit her with it to avoid burning kick trade.
Izuna loop her in the corner.
So the match up still the same eh? Thanks everyone!
I’ll be at SF25 if you guys are going! Stop by and say wassup most likely will be at the MadCatz booth woth a vega hoodie!
Again thanks!
Heh, so the new community tier list has Vega upper mid @ #13? How? Vega used to be my secondary in Super, I always felt like his matchups were the same as Bison’s (who is now #25) but harder.
How do you guys play the Rog matchup? any tips/do’s and dont’s that I should know about? any safejump setups that work on EX rush upper/dash straight? frametraps to beat c.jab x infinity?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks~