Dance with the Claw: Vega Match-up Guide/Discussion

Exactly, there is a counter to everything. The idea that something is safe on block doesn’t mean it’s an infinite loop that you are forced to block over and over and over and you can never get out if it. Start countering :stuck_out_tongue:

About Makoto :

— Her normals will beat yours : it you want to attack her, you’ll have to focus, or to attack low when she’s whiffing high, and the contrary when she attacks low
— Do not stay at close range after one or throw blocked normals , specially when she has ultra stocked, she will karakusa you
— Don’t jump at her till she’s knocked down
— Poke when she’s far to catch her regulars hayate.

I’ve go a little vid who may help you about understanding Makoto.

Seth’s sonic boom is indeed -5 on block if he does it point blank. Most of them use them after hitconfirm blockstrings, so it’s probably much better than that. Dunno the range where it would become positive though. =)

Hey, i was just explaining the difference between safe moves and punishable ones.

Of course there is a counter (or rather an escape in claw’s case) to everything. Wouldn’t be fun otherwise. =)

Oh ok, Thanks TriasNT! :smiley:

It’s been years but I’m still completely helpless in the Akuma match-up. A master Akuma who mastered the vortex. Is that even fair? One mashes the same move over and over and over and over while the other struggles to come out of it.

Slide randomly helps but that’s it. If I block, he does the grab. If I focus for the coming slide, he does the armor braker, if I backdash, he slides. It becomes a game of luck which has nothing to with talent or anything.

Then there is the corner thing. He does the ex air projectile and then jump on me. Now guess if that’s an empty jump and tatsu on land or jump-in normal, or just land and throw. Or one cr.lp or two and then throw and fucking vortex again.

This char is even cheaper than Blanka. He has every fucking thing. An inv. aa, a teleport, a vortex, cross-up jumping normals, everything.

I don’t think there’s anyone who will say this match-up is 5-5, is there? Cause it’s much like Blanka VS T.Hawk match-up. Or is there something I completely miss?

I wish I had the guts to completely quit this game altogether, really. It’s just bad for my nerves. It’s totally out of balance.

No character in this game has a 5-5 vs Akuma if they get knocked down. That’s just how Akuma works. Be glad that you have excellent grounded options. Your walkspeed matches his, you outfootsie him (he can’t just throw out that sweep 14 times in a row, like he can against the rest of the cast), you got solid air-to-airs, with one bar you can always punish teleport (EX FBA), and he takes a beating like a little girl. Make him work for that knockdown.

Try simply blocking instead of trying to escape every time. You can block all of his Demon Flip options low, though I’m sure you knew this (obviously Demon Flip grab will beat this, but that’s the mixup). Backdash/focus-backdash more, if you know that your opponent doesn’t have option selects up his sleeve.
Most importantly, remember that the other guy you’re playing is a human being who can make incorrect decisions. Pay attention to what he does after knockdowns and act accordingly. I know that sounds obvious, but it sounds to me as though you’re getting so frustrated with the character that you’re forgetting about trying to out play the other person, which is always paramount.
Though it may be irritating to have to deal with, okizeme situations where you’re reduced to “guessing” are your punishment for getting knocked down in the first place. And as I said, it becomes much less of a pure guess if you’re adept at reading your opponents patterns.

Sorry if my advice is too general, but it’s difficult to say anything more based on what you’ve told us.

You guys are both right.
I mean, I’m dealing with frames to do a combo and the man just mashes the same things. So, I think that makes me too frustrated.
Because I can’t put him in such bad conditions as he can put me into. And not getting a knock down is almost impossible, cause that means you should not be grabbed or eat that super-fast slide. And I find myself stupidly mashing the crouch tech in order not to be grabbed.
I have solved my Blanka problem, which was huge and seemed impossible months ago. Same with Bison. I guess I will also solve my Seth and Akuma problem sometime. But it’s a shame it is always Vega that suffers and no character has a Vega problem except for Zangief and T.Hawk.
Rufus on the other hand, has never been a problem for me, which everyone says is Vega’s worst match up. Strange.

Against Akuma :

The vortex options, in this video if you didn’t watched it before
— Not to enter the vortex : mostly by avoiding being his forward throw and his sweep. If backdashing does not do the trick , you can always try to neutral jump or backjump when you see it coming
— PPP flip or blocking forward each time you see him tatsuing, to avoid the cross-up. I didn’t knew the trick of blocking low his dive. But i would be careful about blocking low too often, cause he can always go for a regular jump (and he has a horrible ambiguous jHP) or a tatsu. But pinpointing when the tatsu will come is a good thing, 'cause they often go into a sweep after it, which is punishable.
— cHK or focus dash forward if he does air hados. He really does open himself by doing so, and a slide is often a great way in against him. =)

i think he was referring to EX Air Hado as a meaty on wakeup then jumping in on Vega while he’s both KD and cornered. That cannot be FA’d and slide will only result in you getting counterhit and getting caught up in hitstun for a couple hours while Akuma takes his time to figure out what he wants to do.
the other advice is good.

GI:
Although Xgrayninja’s advice is probably the best in my opinion. Focus on playing the player and less on the character. It’s good to know your opponent’s character’s options but focusing on the character is the first step to putting yourself into a flowchart. You want to avoid that and stick with a more fluid set of options. This makes you both far less predictable and far better at reading and more importantly, responding correctly to your opponent’s actions.

When you’re determining how to respond to something like Akuma’s vortex, you have to focus on 2 things:
#1- Options- Specifically your options vs his. Blocking low beats every option except demon grab and throw. There’s no reason to block high unless he doesnt do a demon flip. Reversal loses to every option except throw and demon grab. There is absolutely zero reason to attempt to tech a throw in this circumstance. It still leaves you cornered, it still leaves Akuma with momentum, and you eat a shit ton of damage for guessing wrong. Get used to ST’ing throw attempts. The risk is “higher” (i think of the risk as the same since if I get knocked down i still have to deal with the same situation again) due to much longer recovery than a whiffed throw attempt. This will make you both more careful about choosing when to press a button or not, and you have a much greater reward for guessing correctly. You get out of pressure and the corner (at worst). Eventually at some point your opponent will either change and pick up on the fact you’re always blocking low and attempt to demon grab you (or empty palm grab). This is good because you are controlling your opponent and forcing them to do something that you can predict and possibly even get them to establish a pattern with. Or, your opponent will remain stupid and thus the vortex is useless.

#2- Minimzing damage- When you get caught in a vortex you have to accept to some extent that you WILL take damage. You will have to make some incorrect guesses before you can make a correct guess from time to time. So now you evaluate the risk. If you just block, then you lose at most, 150 damage for getting demon grabbed (or 130 for regular grab). Since most of Akuma’s combos do more than 150, then this is the damage you must accept will occur if you guess wrong. So to minimize damage when you don’t know what your opponent is going to do, you block and take the throws until you get to a point where you can predict that a throw is coming. Then you respond with whatever you decided in step #1 (in this case, ST because it’s unthrowable). Just because Akuma’s vortex has many options, doesnt mean that all options are equal in risk, damage, or chances of occuring. You either have to be able to instantly identify what option is coming and react appropiately in time, or for us slower folk, you have to be able to minimize damage by weighing the most likely thing to occur with the safest option you have. Whichever option weighs more is the option you choose.

If he does the EX air hado, and if you’re cornered, focusing won’t help indeed, you’re right. The most common option after this hado barrier is the overhead… but he could just adjust to your guard, and sweep. Maybe it could trick him to block low the air hados, then high just after it. =)

Good advices for most of it.

Maybe another tiny tip that would help : whenever Akuma does a flip, he does a kind of « Hey » sound, that will tell you you could block low most options. If he goes for ambiguous jHP or air tatsu cross-up, he’ll jump silently, and you’ll know you’ll have to block high. =)

Cross up tatsu also has a significant chance of whiffing for akuma if u stay crouched, wich is kind of nifty sometimes (namely if u guessed wrong but it whiffs anyway lol).

Also get used to spotting and punishing air fireballs, most akuma’s I face still seem to have the idea that this option is free for akuma.
But Vega can use EX-RCF and Ultra 1 to counter all air fireballs and Slide is a great option ofcourse, if you can get past the fireballs or force a trade.
EX-RCF is a great tool for countering forward jump air fireballs against akuma, it takes a little getting used to timing it though, but once you get it down it does alot of damage if u link it to s.hk and much damage and okizeme if u link it to c.mp>EX-FBA.
U1 would also be my ultra of choice versus akuma for the exact reason of putting a risk to all of akuma’s fireball zoning options.
It forces him to play footsies more, wich u can win.

This is a general tip but i find it works against some characters then others:

If u tech against akuma, use the crouch tech with c.mp. The reason for this is that it moves vega’s hitbox in a wierd way should he get hit, moving vega very far away on counterhit. (Vega’s hitbox already gets blown back far on counterhit, causing some counterhit combos of certain characters to whiff, getting counterhit out of c.mp further exaggerates this issue for your opponents)
Should u get counter hit, his usual counterhit combo’s will often whiff sometimes leaving him open for punish, even stuff like hp shoryu to purposely blow up a tech will often only hit once leaving him wide open since most akuma’s dont fadc the first hit

I need serious help with Guy. I can’t anti air him, he pushed me to the corner in one combo, and he just flat out destroys me. What buttons should I pressing, and how do I keep him out of the air?

Jump-back MP tends to beat most of Guy’s options in the air. Once you manage to keep Guy grounded, it should be fairly easy for you from there. On the ground you’ll only really have to deal with Guy’s cr.HK (slide). Remember that this move is only punishable on block from point blank range. That being the case, lots of sub par XBL Guy players like to try and abuse it. The answer to this is to play superior footsies; be mindful of where you are in relation to Guy. Always be far enough away so that if he slides, it will whiff and you’ll get a free punish with Vega’s slide or cr.MK>cr.MP>EX FBA.

Thank you guys for awesome tips. Unfortunately as he stupidly messaged me after his victory saying “Don’t try again, I’m better than you” and my reply to that, I doubt we will have any more matches. Alas, he was the best Akuma I faced on PC. But I simply hate arrogance.

Wow, gotta love how people who probably only play online and never attend tournaments tend to have the biggest egos. I find it sad whenever anyone takes XBL that seriously.

Maybe I’ve got some tips that would help :

— Avoid pressing buttons as much as you can. Guy’s jumps will beat your aas (it even beats good aas sometimes), specially at wake-up
— Outside of wake-up situations : jMP is good, as said Xgrayninja. So is airgrab, and jHP. But be careful not to get predictable (back dash or focus back dash sometimes), or the Guy will use EX izuna which will win against everything airborne (he could grab ultras with that ^^).
— Elbow drop & flying elbow : blocking high put him at frame disavantage. U2 destroy boths jumps. And some low hitting attacks may work as well.
— When being into the target combo-run pressure, I would rather be thrown than eat his combos cause their are damaging. But you could backdash sometimes, to prevent him canceling his TC
— If he repeatidly does ambiguous jump ins (watch for jMK when being cornered), you can sparingly use KKK flip (or PPP if you’re sure it’s a cross-up). Guy’s strings are very tight on execution, so the opponent will input his normals like if you hadn’t avoided the jump, which will give you time to escape. Same if you don’t see a way out of run-stop strings, but even more sparingly.
— If he hasn’t meter, pressure him like no tomorrow, he’s helpless
— fast normals can counter his neckbreaker/shadow kick (the things he does after a run) mix-up, just be careful for EX run.

Ahh, arrogance is the danger which comes with skill.

Still, this is despicable. But I’ve got a lot of people who taunted me who ended with a defeat replay sent to the view of all. Improve your defense, Gross_indecency, you’re attack skills are wonderfull, but it seems to me you have problems blocking jump-ins/cross-ups. All what you need to get out of Akuma’s vortex is one good guess => work your defense ! =D

Do you guys have any good tips for against Guile? I’ve figured out that jpf. hp can beat out his flash kick if done right(if im correct) but other than that I have a really hard time against him.

Generally speaking, just walk him down toward the corner. Don’t become obsessed with trying to counter his Sonic Booms; it’s not worth it and you’ll take more damage than you have to in the long run. Just play conservatively and wait until you’ve walked him to the corner. From there it’s very easy to pester him with your superior pokes (namely st.LK, cr.MK and cr.LP), and obviously his zoning game is far less effective there as well. There are some Guile players who will actually try to rush you down at certain points in the match, and so you should be on the look out for any haphazard jumps (LK ST, Jump-back MP and U2 should deter him from approaching you from the air). Also, when YOU happen to get cornered, don’t panic and press alot of buttons or attempt sloppy jumps while trying to escape. Proficient Guile players can and will lock you down in the corner with block strings ending in Sonic Boom (which is anywhere between neutral or +4 on block depending on the version used) and frame traps. In that scenario, the Guile player wants you to press buttons. Trust me, just block it out (for the most part). If you train yourself to just block in these situations, the most you’ll eat is an overhead or a throw. Compared to constantly getting counter-hit, a throw is the lesser of two evils, damage wise. It’s not as though Guile gets any sort of strong oki off of a throw anyway, so it’s really not that threatening.

The central theme of this matchup, in my opinion, is to not allow how much you want to close the gap between you and Guile to cloud your judgement and result in your making careless mistakes. Play conservatively; Vega does a helluva lot more damage than Guile and has very strong options after a knockdown, so one opportunity means you can quickly negate any damage you may have taken due to his attempts at zoning you.

I wasn’t expecting such a long and detailed response, thanks a lot dude!

i’ll gladly give away free points to play better people online.