Yeah, that’s why i said rufus with meter/ultra > cammy with meter/ultra.
It’s actually best if you don’t tech the HK SA since the mix up I was referring to comes into play if you do tech. She recovers fast enough to jump after you get hit with the HK SA, and the moment you tech, she’s at the height of her jump. That’s pretty much where you don’t want her to be.
Though not teching the HK SA doesn’t make Vega any less free on wake up, though you won’t have to be left guessing which way to block.
That’s good to know, thanks!
The timing for that mixup needs to be pretty hard, doesn’t it? Especially cause every character wakes up differently (timing needs to be learned) and afaik a tech can even be delayed by 4 frames or so? Or does that only apply to hard knockdowns?
The timing is not really that hard since the active frames of the dive kick are active until she hits the ground. As for her j.lk, the timing might slightly differ when dealing with characters with bigger hit boxes, but it’s still not too hard since the active frames [unfortunately] last long as well.
This really goes back to my original statement why I think her cross up j.lk is the reason why she rapes Vega for free. Adds another layer to her offense that just really hurts Vega. If she didn’t have dive kicks, that would be a different story but… =\ lol
Yeah, but well… If you can mess up her timing on your wakeup it’s not that strong, sorry. I’m more afraid of Akuma’s okizeme.
…? You can’t “mess” up her timing.
Like I said, the active frames of her dive kick and j.lk are long so regardless when you tech, you’re still left guessing which way to block. Best not tech at all. Though this was just one example of how strong her j.lk is in that mix up situation (and how effectively it rapes Vega).
Be it post knockdown or during her pressure, she can easily break Vega’s defense with j.lk since you’re left guessing when she’s going to activate her dive kick during her jump or if she’s going to go for the cross up (it’s an unfortunate, yet powerful tool she has to break her opponents defense and Vega has no real answer too it).
I think Chun Li is one of Vega’s worst matchups. It’s like you’re playing a clone of yourself that is better in every way.
On walk speed, they are about even, BUT:
Vega’s excellent pokes are outdone by the speed of Chun Li’s pokes.
Vega’s air dominance is completely neutralized.
Vega’s footsies are destroyed (She’s the one character who I CANNOT win the footsie battle against, though I never played a good Gen in vanilla)
Vega’s tick throw game is rivaled, if not outdone, by Chun Li’s. (The fact that Vega must tick after a 4 frame c.short or c.jab or a 5 frame s.short into a kara throw, which, if I’m not mistaken, the kara (priority cancel) adds another frame to the throw startup, means his tick throw game is much slower than Chun Li’s 3 frame rapid chain-able light ticks.)
Vega’s nice i-frame U2 looks terrible in comparison to the nasty “combo anytime I have EX” Kikosho
And in return, Vega has more stamina, inconsequential longer range on his longest poke, and a situational and tight izuna vortex that if done perfectly can grab EX SBK.
Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think Chun is a hard bitch for Vega to deal with.
IMO, Claw’s worst matchups:
Cammy, Rufus, Akuma, Chun Li, Honda, and to a lesser extent, Boxer.
Well put, JDH. I’d add Guile to that list personally…really good Guiles are a nightmare.
You said this:
Now, if I don’t tech 3 times in a row a good player is going to try and adjust to the timing by doing that crossup a bit later, right? And that’s when I tech early. That’s what I mean by messing with timing.
EDIT:
I love how Tatsu and Ross proved the stuff I wrote about the Honda MU in the other thread lol!
KUKUKUKUKUKU. Great match, Tatsu.
Claw’s worst matchups: is only Bison because of bison rushdown is might might annoy :annoy:
Dhalsim second up but is about know the match up
the rest are 5-5
Either every Bison player I’ve come across is horrendously bad or I just find Balrog/Blanka/Chun to be much harder than him as a match…
Well played by Tatsu, but I wouldn’t say that that was exemplary honda play…Mike Ross was missing links all over the gaff. The dude I fought in the EVO qualifier hit me with a 22 and 14 hit combo every time he had an opportunity, changed the whole course of the game.
Still thanks tatsu, I’ll study the video, especially your excellent use of Ultra in round 2, to spark that awesome comeback!
I think Bison is an easy match-up for u since u alt him and know what to expect. Same goes for me and Chun, ever since I picked her up as a secondary I don’t struggle as much against her anymore. Its funny how that works.
Sim’s stupid forward dash is… a pain in the ass lol. I hate this match, it always turns into a cat n mouse game and usually ends in a time over decision. Well for me at least.
here is why I think Rufus > Cammy in terms of matchup difficulty.
Rufus’ throw game is far more scary. Cammy’s is not. In most cases, go ahead, let her do her dive kicks. They’re not always safe, and backdash is an easy answer for a get away unless she is thinking of doing spiral arrows. Her throws don’t put you anywhere but right at her feet, which I guess sucks, but considering Rufus does the same AND always throws you into the corner where you are guaranteed to die, I’d much rather let Cammy throw me than Rufus. Rufus simply pwns you when gets up close, there is always an easy way to get away from Cammy, but the trade-off is I’d argue she’s harder to keep out. For the most part, Rufus runs risks getting in but Kouryuu makes a really good point about Cammy’s walk speed. That does make a big difference.
Also, Rufus has jumping roundhouse. Deal sealer IMO. Cammy has an air grab that is easily beat, and genreally, Vega > Cammy in the air big time. Rufus > Vega in the air simply because of that one move. Switches between dive kick and juggle kick, doesn’t exactly suffer by doing so.
Rufus does send you to the corner, and that really hurts Vega. However, Cammy has a very strong mix up off her back throw. To say that her throw game is weak probably comes from ignorance (though I don’t blame you, since not many people know of the mix up anyway). I don’t want to get into it here but if you want to know what mix up I’m referring to, watch Sanford/Sakonoko/Jwong (DJB13 has a tutorial video on it as well).
Yes and no. Backdash is an easy answer to instant TKCS but if she divekicks from a certain height, she can tag Vega after his invulnerability frames are gone. And there are a few cammys that are sufficient at OS SA after a whiffed instant TKCS. So, in the end, backdashes will only do so much.
Like I said above, Cammy’s throw game can be deadly, especially against Vega since her dive kick mix up/shenanigans post back throw can really screw up his charge (i.e. rid him of many options in said situation).
I agree with you completely on this but I don’t think it’s enough to say that Rufus is overall better than Cammy against Vega. In Vanilla (and Super), if you manage to bait a j.rh, you can always tag him with st.rh on his way down but in Super, you can also tag him with Ultra on his way down as well. His air game becomes more of a guessing game if anything. Of course, if Vega didn’t have an air throw that comes out in 3 frames, that would be a different story but let’s be glad that’s not the case =)
I personally think Cammy is harder for Vega (but that’s just my opinion) but I’m sure we all can agree that both characters are a pain in the ass.
speaking of pain in the ass how should i fight against (a really good) ryu, his focus attack on a wake up if well timed beats any wake up attack i try (cept for ultras)
Are you talking about Ryu hitting you with a focus attack as YOU get off the ground? Try backdashing, even in the corner the invulnerable frames will save you.
Pretty much any attack that is timed to hit Vega on wakeup will stuff all of your attacks except UltraII. It’s just the nature of playing Claw, you really don’t want to be knocked down.
“Really good” could mean a wide range of skill levels, and there isn’t any real “gameplan” that will work against everybody, nor against any one good person after playing them for a while. I’d say it’s more about accumulating little pieces of knowledge here and there.
Try and keep Ryu where you are comfortable with him being. Thats the first part: make them play your game if possible. Catch him trying to fireball or walk forward by poking him unpredictably, airgrab his jumps, izuna vortex him a little bit in the corner if he doesnt have meter, use the kara grab at ranges where he cant throw you. If he angles a jump-in correctly, suddenly you will have to play HIS game. Block correctly and patiently, press throw a few frames after you think he might throw you (so that youll block an attack or automatically tech a throw), dont desperately try to get out with backflips, use ex-ST to go through his fireball if he tries to end a blockstring with one. Dont always use the same things, dont always do it at the same time, dont always use different things at different times, find ways to counter his counters to your counters. Haha, just learn little bits at a time, and take breaks.
Yeahhhh I forgot about that hooligan set up off of back throw.
thanks meteo2!
didnt know back dash was that effective for wake up, i was under the impression that ex ST had invulnerable frames in the beginning.
the ryu i was referring to was no. 2 on leaderboards, dont know how good that makes him…maybe one of you guys played him b4.
toastedwigz: EX ST only has fireball invincibility frames at startup, it has no attack invincibility whatsoever.
JDH: Vega-Chun is not that bad at all. I think it’s one of his better matchups, actually. You’re trying to poke her; you should be trying to counter-poke her pokes instead.