neutral jump mp beats high elbows without trade.
i focus the lower ones (except for meaty ones)
ST mid-air ones. the trade is in your favour
You have to just block the meaty ones
And you can punish any obivous, non meaty elbow with U2.
Guy’s slides, both of them, are the biggest problem for Vega. And my Guy friend who is a grandmaster on PC tells me it is the only poke that works on Vega. So, block low mostly.
train yourself to see the difference between the flip elbow and the normal elbow. flip elbow can throw you, so be careful on that one. the elbow coming from the flip is pretty damn hard to combo into though
Just wait for a slide and punish it. It has a lot of recovery, not hard at all to punish the with with crMK MP FBA
Ty for the advice I’ll try neutral jump mp. Ya I do need to see the difference I just feel that I seem to corner myself very easily against Guy and once in the corner its all over for me. I’m just used to using Vegas staple anti airs that are worthless afaik against Guy and it blows me up fast. Any general advice on to play this matchup aggressively defensively in certain ranges etc.?
“Slide” was the wrong word i guess. Cause i was talking about cr.mk which is 0 on block and is two hits. And run- slide which is pretty safe and very fast if they adjust the distance. These are the problems.
Meaty run slide is -5 at best.
Seriously, next to Abel, this wasian Guy gives me the most trouble. If he so much as touches you, you’re stuck in an endless frame trap string that pretty much requires a fantastic guess to get out of. And I really don’t get the “just punish the slide”? Please explain if I’m missing something as I could really use good tips. The Guys I play use the slide at that perfect 1/3 screen range (I’m taking about his d+HK slide) which A) beats out every one of your pokes, B) leaves Guy safe, C) allows him to at least trade with crLK if you try to punish. Usually though, if spaced properly, that crLK will beat you. So punishing the slide is out of the question. You could maybe backdash after blocking it, but no, Guy can easily do quick low OS HK-slide.
I found that a good answer to the slide is a FA, so I started charging it when I saw Guy at that perfect 1/3 range. But of course, I got a little too happy as he caught on to it and started mixing it up with those FA-breaking shoulder attacks.
And the F%&¤!G slide is just ONE thing in that assholes arsenal. Let me repeat that if you get stuck in his string (which also corner pushes like crazy) you’ve pretty much left to guessing your options as a 2$ psychic. And if he has two meters and you don’t have inhuman reflexes; you’re dead, because 1. runslide - 2. FA-cancel - 3. frame trap string. Good luck. Make a wrong guess and 1/4 of your life is gone, you’re close to dizzy and the whole thing starts over as soon as you stand up. I’ve got no idea how Guys other MU’s are but I would much rather face Akuma or Cammy any day over this jackass.
i would just walk right outside his slide if i can predict it. walk into the range to bait it, walk back out, whiff punish with cr.mk to cr.mp combo. of course, you have to have a life lead first, haha. same goes for bison
Beat him in footsies by being outside of that range, thus forcing him to whiff the slide, so you can react and punish the whiff with crMK MP FBA. You have the best walkback speed of the game for a reason.
His Bushin Flip > Elbow Drop has 8f of recovery as well, so if he is whiffing that shit in your face you can punish the recovery with stHK, stHP, crMP, kara throw, U2, whatever. Just don’t try to beat it while it’s still active.
His strings are weak. crLK crLK it’s not a blockstring, you can backdash out of it. Block the first one THEN backdash, do not backdash at wake up if he is OSing you there.
Guy is 5-5 MU imo. Abel on the other hand… I’d rather not even start this subject again.
That was some pretty good advice, Haz. Thanks. As for Abel, he gets my blood pressure to rise.
shiro and rico suave is coming to australia for shadowloo showdown…i’m so fucked…
There’s still time to learn Yun.
Seriously.
Guy is troublesome but not unbeatable. DWU helps a lot (unless your opponent can prove he has oki for DWU). Don’t be scared to take a throw or two. If the guy keeps pushing for frame traps, focus backdash them. But you can’t be too predictable (obviously). Work on your defensive measures against specific guy approaches and learn to mix them up. Vega has ways to make Guy guess just as much as Guy has to make Vega guess. It’s by no means free for guy. Maybe 5/5.5 in Guys favor.
Abel too is not unbeatable. The only thing about Abel is by design, he beats Vega on paper. I’ve ran this match up since vanilla days. You must learn to play outside step kick range. Bait/punish all wheel kicks/rekkas. Due to Abel’s huge upper body hurtbox, St.hk is a good button in footsies (as a punish/poke/AA) but don’t get too trigger happy since it is step kick punishable (if your opponent is on point). Punish all whiffed rolls on reaction, w/ throw or cr.lp. Once you learn to punish raw dashes on reaction, you’ll be set. Abel can’t get in on Vega for free. Play smart/reactive until you knock him down. Dont underestimate step kick. Press too many buttons and the match will be over very fast. (Step kick can cleanly beat/whiff punish Vegas cr.mp… Yeahhhh)
Push offense when you knock him down (or when you land a meaty Df.hk). His defensive options are weak. And good mix of throws, Df.hk, meaty cr.mk, and jump back hp will keep Abel guessing. Abel is weakest at point blank and outside step kick range. Abuse it. Be wary of EX rekka. Don’t get too trigger happy when he has meter to FADC into ultra. This applies to both mid screen or close range.
Abel however, is strongest when in step kick range and after a blocked step kick forward dash (+1 on block)… This is where vega, sadly gets raped. The guessing game is in his favor so don’t panic. When he has meter to FADC the cl.hp is when it’s especially dangerous. Sometimes it’s good to just block and take a throw. Unless you get a hard read, you should not be doing anything over zealous. Blocking is your best friend (the cl.hp isn’t worth it). Cl.hp will catch jumps and button presses. All you need is a good guess to set yourself back into neutral (and hopefully net some damage before hand.) I’m not gonna list them here but hit the lab to see all the options you have against Abel’s offense off step kick (you have a good arsenal except against cl.hp; gotta block that shit) but if he cancels into rekka, throw punishable. If he doesn’t cancel cl.hp, it’s a 4 frame punish.
5.5/6(maybe) in Abel’s favor.
Edit:
Also, unrelated but what I really wanted to list was…
Against Rufus, off izuna drop… If you read that he will DWU to avoid ambiguous oki… Whiff Df.mk > j.hp is a cross up. The more you know…
Grab beats fMK clHP. Blocking there is too dangerous and will not lead you anywhere good. You gotta take the yomi to a higher level.
Start by always backdashing after blocking the fMK, then his options to chase it down are riskier, so your reversal ST/grab have more chances to beat it.
Second hit of the clHP will air reset you out of it, but it only does 30dmg. A really cheap price to get out of that damned range.
CH in the neutral game is definitely really good in this matchup, just don’t whiff that motherfucker. Occasional risky slide is also necessary. Abel will HAVE to play footsies standing to try to get a fMK going on. So you can use slide to get the damage and go for your “oki”, specially when he is meterless.
With that said and with all due respect “his defensive options are weak” my ass. That’s only true when he is facing characters with dive kick and/or chain strings. It’s not the Claw case.
When the spanish scores a knockdown on Abel he has to guess really hard. One right guess from Claw deals 120 dmg and a really weak followup, when the french guy guesses right he does 160 at least and manages to get some crazy okizeme, even with DWU. If the Abel starts to use jumpback as a defensive option in the mix of TT/EX TT/EX CoD/EX Roll/Backdash/clHP you are screwed. Screwed to the point that usually you’re better off whiffing the ST and staying far away to try to be perfect in the neutral game again.
jbLP/or just jump back in general is problematic because when he is standing you can’t link crLPs properly due to the lack of hurtbox around his belly. Go point blank on a standing Abel, use just a tiny close LP to set the puhback. Done. All you can now is link two crLPs, the next one will whiff. Pretty pathetic. crMK crLP does not work, nor stLK crLP. This option also beats the kara throw/CH game altogether at the same time.
About CoD: You can actually block high and low “at the same time”. Both Second Low and Finish Low are 7f slower than it’s respective Mid counterparts. So you can block high just when you recovered from block stun… and then you can go to downback to block his Low option. Just a matter of practice. Geezus, record dash fMK and try to stop that. It’s not easy. You have to react in 19f.
Also… good Abels rarely do Wheel Kick/Roll in the neutral game. Doing risky shit like that it’s how Abel can start to get the risk/reward ratio against him. If the Abel is conservative with his fMK and (focus or not) dash attempts… you will not see it coming when it finally does. It’s just how thing works. Nobody can react in 12ish frames to something when this something isn’t extremely obvious.
If you don’t know the Abel player/never played against him and therefore you do not know his tendencies… chances are you are going to get bodied in a ft2.
ah yes, always knew about blocking both high and low at the same time since low is a tad slower. problem is that it’s hard to actually practice. oo! and you can jump in punish his third low if he’s stupid enough to do it! or cl.hp combo if he does the high version! i wish capcom can make the training room a bit better with programable moves. don’t forget when grabbing after his f+mk and cod with plink grab. need to have that perfect grab timing.
i found punishes for the second hit of cod, cr.mk, cr.mp ex fba, but i can’t find a proper punish for wheel kick. you know, just in case he catches me by surprise…
stHK generally. stHK xx EX RF when you can.
3 frame (+1 due to step kick xx fdash) cl.hp vs 3 frame throw. What would win? The inconsistency of punishing with a 3 frame throw (if in fact it beats the attack… I assumed attacks have priority over regular throws) makes that a risky attempt IMO. I’ve caught good players( using Abel) attempting to stand throw, post blocked f.mk xx cl.hp. So definitely would recommend blocking.
I do agree with the use of backdash, to possibly test the opponents choice of OS off cr.lk (or whether he even is using OS). But backdash loses to it’s fair share excluding OS (e.g. Abel waits post block and punishes the backdash on reaction w/ step kick). Anything outside block I’d use very moderately should Abel manage to get in via step kick.
I agree. CH just outside step kick range is a good button.
I disagree, Abel’s wake up is not that great at all (granted, Vega doesn’t bank on a knockdown like, say Cammy but could still abuse his relatively poor wake up.) On his wake up, any meaty would beat jump back/TT/roll/anything meter less outside block/backdash. Meaty CH however beats backdashes as well and leaves you at +frames. Which leaves Vega at a good position point blank. It takes Abel players patience and smarts to pick his spots when on the defensive/wake up (usually at the cost of meter). It’s not that easy for Abel.
Jump back hard punch keeps Abel’s honest w/ wake up TT/throws (good when ahead in life).Also leaves you room to catch a low next time w/ cr.mk.
When he has meter, throw is your best friend obv. But the Abel knows that much so you can use that against him. Don’t fall into any habitual pressure strings so he doesn’t know when to use ex COD.
Tbh, I don’t really see the threat of jumping back with Abel when on the defensive vs Vega. If I’m ahead in life, it’s a poor option since it sets Abel back in the neutral game. Also, whiffing a jump back attack will leave him open for ex walldive (if he makes it obvious of course). Maybe U2 (must test it out first though). If I’m behind in life, it can be annoying to close the gap again but not too bad. Remember, abel cant consistently AA normal Vega in certain ranges.
If you feel like the Abel will jump back, catch the pre-jump frames with cr.lp/cr.mk etc. Two jabs (or even just one cr.lp) is all u need to confirm into cr.mp xx FBA.
F. Dash > f.mk in the neutral game? I don’t see the difficulty in punishing that. If close enough, cr.lp. A little further cr.mp buffered into FBA. Or even raw st.hk ( red focus first hit for a strong damage follow up).
.
Ummm idk… He can save f.mk or his dashes but whether or not someone sees it coming is more player based than character.
Rolling has it’s merits as an answer to pokes in the neutral game. Vegas cr.lp is not fast enough to spam punish so if done sparingly, Abel can get away w/ it.
An option nonetheless.
I
I mean, it’s a difficult match up but I strongly disagree. This is assuming the Abel is well equipped VS Vega (fairly rare). I body most Abels in a ft2 actually due to comfort in a the match up. Vega has to be on point though. In a longer set though, things can get harder over time.
yes, abel has bad wakeup, but the fact haztlan is trying to tell you that one read, and you are dead in a vortex. risk vs reward just isn’t worth it if you don’t know the abel player. haztlan had a video of a first to 10 match with a grandmaster level abel player, and you can see the struggle.
I bolded my answers in the quote to make it easier to reply.
I do think Abel vs Vega is at least a solid 6-4 in Abels favor. Im not going to quote everything (it’s a hassle) but responded to your bolded comments accordingly
-Good to know throws win against attacks; i’ve been thinking it’s the opposite this entire time (in the given situation of throw beating an attack, I always assumed the ‘attacker’ was a frame off). This is very good knowledge actually and changes my opinion a bit on the match up. I’m glad I know this. Granted, being a frame off in the situation of a blocked f.mk > dash can mean losing half your life… but this is very good to know. Thanks lol
-You’re right. OS off cr.lp/cr.lk doesn’t catch Vega but if the Abel reads the backdash (usually habitual), he can step kick, wait and punish predicted backdash on recovery with step kick. I personally opt for blocking just to learn information on how the Abel plays. If anything, save the backdash for when it counts mainly because he can’t OS against it. That’s just my approach/style/opinion though.
-Against back dashes [from Abel] on his wakeup, should we go for a meaty CH and it whiffs, we should be able to tag a cr.lp since we’ll recover before he does, no? Gonna do testing later (but looking at the frames we should be able to). Also, meaty CH could potentially leave us at +/0 frames on block. A good position to condition our opponent into responses (generally against most/all match ups).
-Against jump back j.hp, I think Abel can actually tag us with an air throw should the ex COD hit… but an option I still use when I make the read against a TT/crouch tech/crouch block etc. What else can Abel punish us with on hit (U1 maybe)? Abel is more of a threat w/ meter on the defensive but he still has to make the read. If he guesses wrong he’s [usually] open for a punish and possibly loses out in meter (and put back into oki). Similar to his offense, oki against Abel is all read based. Unfortunately, he banks on right reads far more than Vega does. This is true.
-In the footsie game, Vega has to hit more but those hits come more often than not. If you can train your eye to react to his f.dash, and maintain/mindful spacing (outside step kick range) also AA his jump ins with st.hk for example, Abel will have a much more difficult time working his way in. It’s not easy… and should he get the hit, it’s disastrous but I think it’s not too bad to play footsies with Abel until you score the knockdown.
-Overall, I agree with you on the most part. To beat Abel you gotta have some luck and good reads (and Abel specific set ups). Granted, Abel needs the same as well. Very player based indeed. We have an answer to everything in this match up. We just have to make it count when we get the read. Difficult match up indeed but doable.