the reason i made that comparison, is because you said…
i took that as, in so many words…
people want to be good, so they only pick top tiers.
since i’m more of a marvel player than cvs2 player, i used team scrub as a prime example. i guess you could say people that use cammy/blanka/sag in cvs2. just because you can win with a team like team scrub, which is a team based for noobs, a good team, but a noobish team in general, doesn’t make you good.
so what i’m getting at is,
people want to be good at a fighting game
people that want to be good will use top tiers
just because you can win with top tiers, doesn’t make you good
people who solely use top tiers for the sake of being “good” aren’t actually good, in terms of good.
a lesson i learned when i used to use MSP and Scrub, and i used to call myself good, but people that used ruby heart well could still take me. now i learned better and i’m actually taking apart the game and learning it… w/e tho… i play third strike now…
let’s not get into this arguement. (cvs2 vs 3s balance)
we already covered it.
Just let it go.
As far as picking top tiers it’s like this:
They tend to have more options and are overall better and usually easier to use.
But look at ORO he’s one of hte hardest to use but he’s also one of the best from what i’ve heard (not close to top tier but he’s solid mid tier if i’m not mistaken, may even be close to urien/dudley level but i don’t know enough to say that) i’m just saying this to prove that a good character isn’t always easy to use, another example would be anakaris and dhalsim in mvc2.
The point is picking top tier doesn’t make you good but picking them doesn’t make you bad either. (e.g Wong has never picked a real low tier team in a tournament match (not recently or not to my knowledge at least), and even though he can win with them he certainly isn’t a scrub if he wants to play top tier only)
The top tier generally give you more power for less effort and that’s what makes them good, but if you want a different play experience , unique tactics, and a change of pace and maybe even some very good strenghts that are different from what the top tier have to offer you may want to check out low tiers.
I use low tiers all the time, in mvc2 if you can imagine that.
But i’d recommend you just try to be patient, and if you want to use low tiers you gotta be willing to put more effort.
Also it’s pretty important IMO that you use top tiers first in a game before you use low tiers, so you can see what you are up against and see why they work and what possibly counters them.
Viscant (insert fanboy insult here) once wrote up a interesting piece on counter characters and he even mentioned the utility of some low tiers as counter characters for top tiers so this is another good reason to learn low tiers/use low tiers.
All in all, just use whoever the fuck you like.
:tup:
yes. u use remy right? u beat me almost every time i played u… i use yun SA2 and Ryu SA 1…
i think i beat u once with necro… or some other remy player there… idk… if you’re who i’m thinking of… you’ve got dreadlocks and you have a KMFDM shirt… idk… with my yun, i just rush a lot… and u kept hitting me with c.hp… i felt like a scrub
That’s not quite right, but I know what you’re trying to say. For example, if a 3S noob like me is beating up beginners with Ken, that’s a step in the right direction, but on the whole it doesn’t count for much. I need to be winning against serious competition with Ken for it to have any meaning. Personally that seems so incredibly obvious that it doesn’t need to be said, but if you’re going to say it I suggest hitting the mark better, otherwise it sounds like you’re accusing anyone who wins with top tier of being “not good”.
Same deal here. (1) and (2) are perfect. (3) needs to say “against weak/average/random players”. (4) should say “for the sake of beating beginners” or some such thing.
Tiers are also about redundancy. If in 3S you could have a “good” Sean or “dominating” Ken for the same amount of work, which are you going to rely on for your toughest games? Like Justin Wong in MvC2, people may be able to win plenty of games with low tier, but when the time comes you’ll always see top players drawing on the tiers to minimise the vairance in their favour. What a lot of people don’t realise (but Higher-Jin said) is that doing well with lower tiers is a result of understanding the game in very high detail. The players have the knowledge and skill to exploit characters that most people will never get any serious results out of. This is the whole principle around which counter characters are based.
Another thing (my personal favourite) about rocking low-tier characters is that they’re so underplayed that people forget how to fight them. If you fight 50 Kens in a day, you get used to expecting certain things. But when random Twelve shows up, you have to completely switch gears. Hell, people forget what moves I have.
That’s the strongpoint of low-tier/unpopular characters for me. Even though they’re often not quite as powerful, you can steal a win just from being a ninja and doing the unthinkable.
it goes for anybody. if i’m new to marvel, and i’m playing sanford… i happen to have three meters, and i’m cable, and he calls his assist at the wrong time, and i randomly do AHVB… nowi kill two of his characters… i proceed to win the match. does that prove anything? no, it proves i got lucky. if you use top tiers like magneto or sentinel, which take time to get used to, then that’s one thing… if you’re playing sf3 and you just pick chun all day, or in marvel you HAVE TO have cable on your team, you’re still not as good as you could be if you tried to diversify yourself. i have no respect for a scrub on zbattle who uses ryu all day and beats me 10 x in a row, but i do have respect for somebody who has knowledge to use ryu, dhalsim, ken, chun li, honda, blanka, bison, and sagat, and we play 16 rounds, and he beats me 8 of those 16.
basically said, good players will be well diverse. they can use their gods and their low tiers. they can fight the gods and the low tiers. if somebody who wants to be good come to ctf and plays all day and gets decent with top tiers AGAINST top tiers, and goes to Port where low tiers reign supreme, they’ll have a lot harder time fighting, because fighting MSP is a LOT different than fighting ruby / juggernaut / commando (a team which this one guy proceeded to get 10 wins on me before i figured him out). a good player on the other hand, will adapt in that round, and know how to take down the santhrax, matrix and MSP that he fights at ctf, and then go to port and know how to fight the ruby, juggs, etc… and on top of that, he’ll/she’ll know how to use those characters from fighting them. simply said, it doesn’t take wins and top tiers to be “good”. it takes overall knowledge of the game. you can do ahvb all day, but knowing how to get that hit every time is what takes the skill. you do LS xx HSF combos all day, but once again, it’s getting the hit. you only get good through experience, not by picking top tiers and racking up a few wins.
overall what i’m saying is that a good player can handle anything. not just pick “counter” teams and characters… so if you’re fighting twelve and you can only win with ken or elena… you suck, even though you’re winning. if you can only beat MSP with santhrax, you suck. keep an eye on the word “only”. if you’re playing ssf2, and you can beat gief with ONLY sim, you suck.
what i’m getting at is that by just learning a few basics and using top tiers doesn’t prove shit. you need to be diverse. justin’s not the best for picking gods. he’s the best because he can handle anything with everything. daigo’s not a beast because he picks ryu. it’s because he can stop everything with ryu, but he has used other characters as well.
Actually daigo is the beast cause he doesn’t care about what you think is cheap, and switched to O.sagat / rog when ryu wasn’t working. Justin is the best cause again he doesn’t care about this crazy scrub criteria for respect and will sit there with chun all day if it’s nessecary.
i almost fell out of my chair laughing at this post. god thank you man for that this really brightened my day.
i cut my dreads off, when was the last time u were there? and what do u look like? i dont remember faces just the characters… i pull my hoody up now so i dont have to look at who i’m playing because i hate seeing the utter digust coming from them as i run away the whole match.
actually, now i do remember you coming over to me as i was playing marvel… and then you were telling me about SI players being scrubby. last time i was there was over the summer. i go to school in pennsylvania, so it’s hard for me to get down there
I agree with most of your post m1x4h, with a few exceptions.
I wouldn’t apply that universally. If you’re not getting past someone’s Ryu (or whatever) and they’re playing to win, then I’d save the disrespect for myself if I were in your place. Of course if you’re not playing to win against this thing the entire time, I guess the whole matter is meaningless anyway, so “respect” shouldn’t even be a factor.
The exception to that is if the character is your primary one, and it’s the only one you focus on. In that particular case, you’ve just said that the majority of Japan sucks. They tend to pick a character/team and stick with it for a very long time, focusing on learning the particulars and match-ups just from that perspective, and this seems to serve a lot of them very well. I’m not saying diversity is bad - it definitely plays an important role. But I don’t believe you should put-down players who want to focus on 1-2 characters instead of learning half the cast. Their tourney (i.e. serious) wins are no less valid than those of someone who has used 20+ characters. It’s what you’ve learnt to handle that matters, not how many you’ve learnt to use yourself. Which brings us back to top tiers - they give you the best chance of handling everything without having to learn to use multiple characters, so they make an excellent starting point, and prove to be the most successful at high levels of play.
BTW the US tourney system of “best 2-of-3” is heavily geared towards counter character play, and this is reflected by players learning and applying counter characters. By comparison Japan tourneys usually lock-in character choices for the entire tourney, so it’s “do or die” every time. Both approaches to the game are equally legitimate IMO.
i didn’t know people in staten island knew what street fighter is… i know this kid that plays marvel from SI… he’s decent… but that’s about it… 1 person… w00t… brooklyn’s dying kinda too… BX, queens, and manhatten are still doing good tho