CvS2: Ratio Mode vs. Single Match Mode

Two things to say:

  1. I agree with Margalis, that normal energy meter systems are better, but in the case for Vampire Savior I’ll have to stick up for it. :slight_smile: That energy system works better in VS, because of the general flow of the game. I’ve never minded it there.

  2. Played a bit of one-on-one a few days ago with a friend. Mathces definitely need to be learned a LOT better, and things are definitely at a higher stake. But a lot of the general weaknesses of characters are magnified (as I had thought they would). Plus, the pace of the game is slowed down (now that everything is more vital, turtling and careful (read: slow) play becomes more prevalent). Thus, the game actually turns out to be less fun. I think in one-on-one, the game will be funner at higher levels of play, but when you use characters like Yuri or Kyosuke or King, the game just slows down.

There are just a lot of inherent weaknesses with CvS2 that make it not as good as Alpha 3. If the speed were better, Jump Attacks more prioritized, and if Rolls were a bit weaker, game would be better, I think. As it is, it’s still got too many inherent weaknesses.

Don’t get me wrong, I still like the game. Just that it’ll never approach the level of, say, Super Turbo or (imo) Alpha 3.

Comments? Discussions?

  • James

just thought that I wanted to agree with James.

Single match makes the game less broken and it takes more strategy to play in this mode but when I was playing Combofiend and others it just wasn’t as fun as Super Turbo.

Shaolin

Zugg- still figuring out format for tourney

Im for Single Match tournaments. Even when I play by myself, i use one character at level 4 ratio. Its almost a more refined format.

2 Cents + I’ll be in the Stockton Tourney

2 cents…

1v1 is great because of the in-depth argument that James brought up and I like this idea. In A2 I know a lot about how Bison works against the A2 cast. In CvS2 I am always guessing and its harder to learn how good or bad Bison is because its 3v3. Not enough time and it de-evolves into a “good enough” mentality like James said.

Having said that 3v3 does add variety.

The more variety = less in depth knowledge. More in depth knowledge = less variety.

Lastly, Zekemek I’ll be going to the Stockton tourney this Saturday. But I’ll only be entering the 3S tourney. If you guys do weekly CvS2 1v1 tournies on Saturday or Sunday- I will enter them. I say go for it! GO FOR IT!

I hear A lot of talk about people wanting to make CvS2 singlesa match but I ve yet to see anybody throw any big singles tourneys

Roll Cancelling

Yo jchensor could you give me your take on roll cancelling? Is it a technique that you agree with or disagree with! Me personally I disagree with because I dont see it as a technique! I see it as a another hitch to help the scrub player win! I dont particular like cvs2 that much because of the top tier characters! Im more of an old school player! In the ST days i think people picked characters that they really liked; not because of a cr. fierce! RC takes the fear out of doing a move; ie: its come down to the wire in A3 no super meter left for both players there a sweep distance apart and one guy throws a fireball BOOM a decisive moment in the battle the other anticipated it and jumped over it and crushes him in the face! game over! Not in cvs2 now i can throw and RC’ed fireball and dont have to worry about the delay or lag time on it and im perfectly safe! I think that feeling has left SF now! Am totally off with my theory or no! I’d appreciate your input and anyone else’s is also appreciated! holla back!

Roll Cancelling

Well, for one thing, it is DEFINITELY not a scrub-friendly tool. Yes, you can practice it to the ponit where you are consistent with it, but believe me: scrubs will be scrubs. Roll Cancels are good, yes, but if they are over-used, it will do them no good. Smart players will beat a scrubby Roll-Cancel player as easily as he can beat a non-scrubby Roll Cancel player. The onyl thing that makes it harder is that things that worked before don’t anymore and things that didn’t work before now do. That’s fine. After the initial shock of “Oh crap, I forgot if he RC’ed there, I could get beat!” wears off, smart players can deal.

The problem lies with EXPERTS using Roll Cancels, not scrubs. Not only do they have the penchant to perform an RC with much higher consistency, they can also utilize it in smarter places… places when they’d actually count. This is where danger lies.

RC’s, in the end, however, are a tactic that can be used by any character. So, really, it results in doing one thing. Let’s pretend that RC’s aren’t a technique. Let’s just give EVERY Special Move in the game invincibility when they start up automatically. Does this ruin the game? No, it CHANGES the game. Differnet characters will become top tier and different characters will drop. A nd different Grooves even become better. C-Groove, for example, increases in utility 10-fold thanks to the benefits of Damage and Air Blocking. Of course, in some instances, RC’s just make a good character even better (like Blanka).

Regardless, it doesn’t break the game. The biggest problem is that RC’s AREN’T easy to do. They aren’t automatic. So RC’s WILL break the game for those of us (including me) who have never practiced it, never bothered to learn it, and never bothered to figure out how to fight against it. If RC’s were for free, believe me, all of us would accept it a lot more and everyone would just do it, and CvS2 would be a different game. Would it become broken? Hard to say, since CvS2 isn’t what I’d call “non-broken” in the first place. :slight_smile: But that’s a different story (and yes, I still like the game).

Tell that to OG.Sagat, who many people pick because of a Fireball. Have you ever played Cammy versus a top tier Ryu? It’s not pretty. Fireballs dominate ST the way Crouch Fierces dominate CvS2. The main differences are:

  1. Fireballs are more aggressive. They promote action. You can’t sit there against Fireballs. Crouch Fierces, however, promote turtling, because they win mostly through space control, not offense. No one attacks with Sagat’s Crouch Fierce. They just throw it out because it is safe. And that causes turtling, because the other guy can’t do anything. Now if Sagat’s Crouch Fierce had better range and did Block Damage? See how much sitting around would occur NOW.

  2. Super Turbo daamge is so high. So these things don’t annoy you for a whole round. You get frustrated by a Crouch Fierce in CvS2, and you get hit by 8 of them a round. In Super Turbo, you Block 3 fireballs, get nervous, make one mistake, BOOM. Dead. They bug you a bit, and then you die. It doesn’t have a chance to get on your nerves.

  3. Super Turbo is older, and people played it out a LOT more. Fireball traps were annoying, but you will get people like ME who argue that Cammy doesn’t die to Ryu just because of Fireballs. I think she can beat him. But that’s because the game has been played out.

  4. All characters were cheap. CvS2’s flaws are accented because there are 44 characters, and a lot of of them are subpar. CvS2 may have just as many “top tier” or “close enough” worthy characters as ST… but if ST has 12 worthy characters, that leaves 4 unworthy ones. But in CvS2, that leaves 32 unworthy characters. It’s more glaring. CvS2 falls into the pitfalls of having too many characters for a game that wasn’t designed to be “cheap” enough. The games where EVERYONE is cheap (and not everyone is fair) as a method to promote balance have always thrived: ST, MvC2. And ones that don’t thrive are still more fun to go back to (Vampire Savior).

Actually, that is completely false. Jumping over fireballs in CvS2, if they are RC’ed, will still warrant you a Combo. The invincibility doesn’t last long enough. Their delay overshadows the invincibility by quite a bit.

That feeling has left SF now because of the Ratio system. Rounds are a lot more meaningless. It’s only the very last Round if it’s down to the last characters. In older games, every Round counted, so a comeback any round, or a crucial win any Round made a difference. In CvS2, if your first character barely eeked out a victory against his first character, who cares? Your next will come in and kill the other character right away. No big deal. These days, it’s when those weak character beat up on a full character that is worth noting, but it’s not nearly as exciting as a close victory at the end of a round.

No, you’re not totally off, but it just needs to be less emotionally attached. It’s easy to complain about something but not to think WHY it is that way. Of course all of us can marvel at the glory days of ST, but the very same reasons you like ST, you’ll hate about MvC2. I personally think MvC2 is a brilliant game because it’s the closest thing we’ve had to ST in a while. Unfortunately, I’ve never learned MvC2. :frowning: I’ve always regretted that ever since.

I’m just saying that instead of yelling at games, figure out exactly why what you hate detracts from the game. As I said, I do consider CvS2 broken, but I can go into step by step why, and why these things affect the overall enjoyment factor of the game. It’s easy to declare it crap, but it’s better when you can explain why it’s so. :slight_smile:

  • James

Re: Roll Cancelling

You really think it’s too late to learn MvsC2?

Point being in Houston, people who started off with MvsC2 at StarGate also play ST now.

Re: Re: Roll Cancelling

Hmmm… Interesting to hear that fact… ^^ Wonder if it is coincidence or if I’m actually on the money when I think those games are similar. ^^

And as for learning MvC2, sadly, I actually don’t have easy access to good MvC2 players, depite the fact taht Dub, Shady, Valle, Viscant, Clock, etc. all live in SoCal. :slight_smile: I don’t go to Golfland frequent enough and my friends around me don’t play it. I beat them up, but then local Golfland scrubs own me up for free.

If I had someone who lived with me who was a certified MvC2 expert, would be easier for me to learn.

Lastly, my last paragraph in my last post, I hope it doesn’t sound like I was insulting or being condescending to chi-gui. If you read this, chi-gui, and it came off that way, I totally apologize. It’s not how I meant it at all. Just that re-reading it, I can see how it might be interpreted that way.

  • James

Say James, are you getting around to fixing your faq? :slight_smile:

Re: Re: Re: Roll Cancelling

dont sweat it I understand exactly what points you were trying to convey! I understand RC a little better now (even though i dont use it and never will; thats just my stubborness)!

Agreed…and no matter which mode is chosen, it still boils down to the ratio of your character.

**First I’m post way late on a topic or point that may have already been made.

Okay on the lack of valueable characters, I completely disagree. There are tons of good characters…

Joe
Chun
Guile
Yama
Geese
Rock
Hibiki
Ryu
Ken
Ryo
Akuma
Raiden
Todo
Homarou
Nak
Yuri
Vega
Kim
Balrog
Eagle
Morrigan
Beny
Bison
Rolento
Rugal
Terry
Vice
King
Gief
Sakura
Iori
Kyo
and i think a few others

But my point is that I have seen these character own if not desimate Blanka’s, Sagat’s, and Cammy’s. I think a one on one battle up the character selection process. How many time have you pick a third character only because you felt you needed to. A solid character in any mastered groove is amazing. An by now you have to know the main three’s weaknessess, atleast I do!

If this has already been spoken on, I’m sorry. If not it’s just my little nobody gives a dam opinion. But, I have seen every character listed above do massive shit. They are all really good, has any of you seen that S-groove Anthen bullshit! I hate that shit!

ABASI!** :cool:

You know what? I totally agree! And this reminds me of something else. In all the new games now, when you build up meter, it’s STORED between characters and rounds! So say you’re playing third strike, and you know you’re going to lose the round… instead of trying your best to kill the other guy, you just try to maximize your meter!

What’s up with that? That totally detracts from the strategy involved in the game! Back in the good old days of Super Turbo, none of this crap happened! We started off each round with no meter and everyone was equal! Sigh… look at the newfangled games these days where winning a round is not the objective at all

Think about it… your opponent can store meter too. If won the first round, but losing pretty badly in the second round, running away and building meter is not the best idea.

The best thing to do is to fight back as hard as you can and try to get that win. If you watched the 5 on 5 it happens alot.

The best thing to do in the CvS2 style 3 on 3 if you’re behind in life is to try to fight back to get that win too. What’s your point?

After all, even if you win with 10% life, and then you have to fight the next guy… if you fight really hard, you might win that one as well!

So many great things have been said on this thread! I’m gonna side with the ratio system and side with oriku for two reasons. As mentioned above, ratios are here to stay and most likely won’t go anywhere. And two, it’s not as bad as one might think.

I think most of the arguments for one on one mode is that it FORCES you to elevate your game. Excellent point, and in a perfect world (like back in the old skool days), scenarios forcing you to get better would be great. Everyone switching to one on one would definately jumpstart the deepening of many characters.

But just because the ratio system makes it harder to see things and deal with a variety of match ups, doesn’ t mean it’s impossible. Majestros made plenty of good points with specific details about how ratios might make you think you’re better than you really are. But his simply acknowleding that it’s empty pride is already a great indicator that you CAN step up your game and see things on another level.

Oh, by the way, Majestros, your comment about dominating characters in CvS2 such as Blanka and Sagat is questionable. You stated that because characters like Sagat are so powerful that when you win, you don’t know what you did right, and when you lose you don’t know what you did wrong. I don’t think this has anything to do with ratios and it’s just a law of evolution really. When a character is bad-ass, you tend to think less about him and tend to flesh him out a lot less. Your already kicking ass so you just keep with the status quo. Until Blankas and Sagats are more challenged, they probably will stay pretty static in the minds of many players. Again has nothing to do with ratios.

My point is simply that there’s nothing stopping you from developing and deepening lower tier characters and discovering and unlocking the potential that is inevitably still out there for many under-appreciated characters. Sure, there’s not as many driving forces to compel you to do so, but I believe two types of players can and will:

Players who are devout fans of their particular characters and will do everything in their powers to flesh out these characters regardless of what tier they may appear to be currently. TheRisingDragon is a perfect example. He defends Gief even after recognized aficionados of Gief have been downplaying him. This kind of argument is never an issue of right or wrong or is Gief top tier or lower tier, ever. TheRisingDragon still sees potential and might one day discover something about Gief that nobody thought about, propelling that character to top tier status and the SF community will be better for it. Or at the very least, he will have such a profound command of his particular character that he makes him dominate. This is seen in tourney play. Just look at the Fei longs and Cammys in ST or the Yuns and Athenas in CvS2. Its all about guts and heart. You work hard and only good things will come from it. Props to jchensor for seeing this quality in TheRisingDragon (and preventing a needless flame war on a very good thread). James, you never cease to amaze me.

The second type are those players who regardless of exterior circumstances will elevate their game. They don’t need anything forcing them to get better. They drive themselves. I think that this thread alone proves people like that are out there. This thread points out deficiencies with the current state of CvS2 play but it’s important to understand these deficiencies are changeable. Just because there’s a ratio system doesn’t mean you can’t get a deeper understanding of lower tier characters (or any character for that matter). Again, the system doesn’t steer you in that direction as much, but I believe players can and will elevate gameplay. Whether it’s local one one one tournaments or one on one matches with friends, or hours on the training mode or whatever, people will find ways to dominate and it will only make ratio play better. Anybody who plays to win knows this. Anybody who takes this game seriously will do everything to maximize the chance to win. Players have got to be willing to dominate even with their weakest link on the team to have any hope of being the best.

Don’t get me wrong, ratio play does have it’s slew of problems and they’ve been disscussed thouroghly in this thread, but I feel this game still has the potential to become much deeper. Ratio mode or not.

**

Because of the speed and damage in ST it becomes possible to explore other characters and options, that is why it is a better game in most people’s opinion. Even with that, cammy does not win majors, and is not top tier. You propose to do better, in a game that is slower and with less reward for small victories. Again, even optimism has to have a basis.

**

The deficencies are not really changable, unless the game changes, or someone discovers a glitch. The ratio system doesn’t mean that you can’t learn lower tier characters, it just means that you will have to be twice the player to win. Most of these points apply when you know the game better than your opponent, which might work 80% of the time, but not the 20% that matter. The best players are going to work just as hard as each other, with just as much heart, but with better tools, which means they are going to win.

**

You don’t HAVE to have a weakest link, so there is no reason to learn one. If your weakest link is better, i get to compensate by making my strongest link better for free (with ratio). IMO that is one advantage of MvC2, most teams have to have an AAA, that AAA is weaker overall but helps your team. In CvS2 there is no team, it’s your warmup characters, then your real character with a handicap setting.

RC changed the engine enough that a few characters can be re-examined, Most likely the P/S/K people use to fight RC will allow a few characters to be re-examined, but characters just don’t change because someone has heart.

I think I understand your reasoning. You’re taking into account two very real and important things that perhaps I didn’t consider enough. One is the amount of time invested in practicing. I believe your very good point is that we all have a limited amount of time so why not use it most effectively. For example: Learn to dominate with top tier characters instead of trying to strengthen that “weak link” character on your team because you get more bang for your buck.

The other thing is the controversial, but important concept of tiers. Bottom line: whether we want to admit it or not, there are simply some characters that are better than others (especially in CvS2). That being the case why not abuse that fact and win tournaments. Master the top tiers and you be better than had you mastered lower tiers.

I’m willing to agree with you on all your points (assuming I read your post correctly FMJaguar I felt that some of your wording was ambiguous, but I think I know what you’re saying).

Having said all this though, do you feel that switching to one on one mode will be any better? According to your reasoning, it seems that it would make CvS2 even less diverse. That perhaps in tournament play all we’ll see is a bunch of Blankas and Sagats because they’re so dominant.

Jchen, where is your theory on st and mvc2 being similar?

I’m curious:D