The most common throw tech-hit is when someone rolls towards you, you throw them and they tech. When this happens it means your threw too late, at the end of the roll. If you throw someone while they are actualy in the roll (or doing any move) they cannot tech hit.
I won’t say much about throw setups other than that most of the dive kick type moves give very little block stun. For example with Benimaru if you do his RH drill you can do his super grab right as you hit the ground and it will hit, you don’t have to pause at all. (Or just a tiny bit depending on how high up you hit them)
Ok, let me give a few examples of what I’m talking about.
Situation 1 – against Sagat
So, let’s say you’re fighting Sagat, and you happen to fall into range for his C.Fierce. Knowing this, you roll right through it. As soon as you can, you throw. He tech-hits. Why you say? Because he’s already mashing on Fierce, which counts as a tech-hit.
Situation 2 – setting up with Sakura
You score a knockdown. It’s time for a cross-up. You do the cross-up, they block. Now, you want to keep the party going with a throw. You throw. They tech. Why you ask? Because that’s like, so obvious once you don’t stick out an attack. After playing against Sakura for X years, you begin to figure out when a throw is coming and when it’s not.
The Solution
The best thing I’ve discovered is to not throw. Fake like you’re going to throw. Then, do a quick C.short and use that to score a knockdown. If they still manage to block, try to work the situation a couple of times so you can get them out of the mindset of throwing, then throw.
What is happening here is that Sagat is trying to throw you as you roll. What you need to do is roll earlier so that you throw him while he is in recovery.
If you roll at someone and they are not stuck doing a move it is very difficult to throw them, because they most likely are trying to throw you out of the roll. One of you will get a tech hit.
I agree that in CvS2 throws are important, and they also are hard to not be tech’d.
Some setups I’ve used / seen:
Roll into throw. GHETTO.
Characters with fast walking speed and high-priority pokes. Cammy and Vega come to mind. Walk back and forth with a few pokes, and then walk upto them and throw. This is pretty old.
Empty short jump into throw. Especially good with Blanka and Sagat because they have such feared short jumps. This also sets future short jump tactics like Sagat’s empty short jump into Raid.
Sakura and Cammy’s whiffed dives into throw.
After whiffed short hurricane kicks into DP, whiffed into throw. GHETTO.
Blanka’s whiffed jab ball into throw.
Blanka’s c.forward xx forward hop into throw. This gets tech’d a lot.
Blanka’s electricity, stop right before they get up, throw. This is a funny one and probably impractical.
Go for deep cross-ups after every knockdown (as you should anyway!) and then omit an air attack, land, throw.
JD creates some mindgames with throws when you’re being attacked from the air. Basically, after a deep attack that’s JD’d, you can immediately mash forward to get a throw. Some characters need to mash jab to try and hit you out of it, some need to mash fierce to try and tech. This comes up a LOT in Chicago.
Some characters have great walk-up jabs/shorts. Sagat’s on tall characters (including other Blankas and Sagats!), M.Bison’s s.jab (on at least Sagat), and Vega’s s.short and Rolento’s s.jab on everyone. You can continuously mix-up walk s.jab and run s.jab. If the opponent is taking any hits they’re trying to outpoke you, which they can’t, so wait until they’ve stopped trying and then you get a poke-> throw. This is hard to get out of. I think when Sagat is doing this to Blanka, a close s.jab into an immediate throw can only be stopped by Blanka’s s.jab, c.short seems too slow. This creates the problem that Sagat can make you stand up and then Tiger Raid you. I’m not sure if this is guaranteed, but it works in practice and it worked on a almost everyone I tried it on in the Midwest qualifiers.
Okay, what I’m trying to say here is this: there ARE Throw Set-ups. But all Throw Set-ups follow the one same principle: you caused a brain freeze in the enemy so they Block on reaction.
The reason why I say there no such things as “Throw Set-ups” is because if your opponent’s default brain freeze reaction is to Crouching Jab or Short, you will never land these Throws. One of my friends I’ve nicknamed “Always-Touch-A-Button” stops 95% of my Throw attempts, even with your standard “Throw Set-up”. But that’s because he taps buttons a lot. So if I replace Throw with a Jab DP against my friend, he usually gets hit.
Which is why I claim there are no “Throw Set-ups” in actuality. Because the Throw Set-ups we’ve come to know and love are really just ways that cause brain freeze to 95% of the people in existence. Experts won’t fall for it because they are more or less “immune” to the Throw Set-up.
In other words, Throw Set-ups are not reliable. If someone stops your Throw attempt, you should never think, “Man, why didn’t that work?!?” It’s just another level of the mind games. You have the situations that work really well (the Cross-up Standing Jab whiff Throw that someone mentioned in another thread), but against people who are used to it, it won’t work that well.
Bleah. I’m not sure I made myself any clearer. Am I making sense? Or am I just making you even more confused?? Sorry.
jchensor: you think that’s bad? I’ve taught UCLA never to block on their wakeup ^_^;;;;;;; And in Nor-Cal, every time I try to do a throw setup against Choi or Nelson, I always eat a combo into super. WTF?!
Yes, I throw waaayyy too much. It’s enough to make me never want to throw anymore
Another “setup” you can try is to time a jab or short so that it goes right through the opponent right on their wakeup. The timing will be such that you’ll be able to throw almost immediately.
Crystal clear. I understand what you are saying but, I disagree. I agree throw set-ups aren’t as good against good players but, I’ve seen them used once or twice a match in high lvl play. So I believe throw set-ups are reliable as long as they are not over used.
Landing that dp is the result of throw set-ups. If the threat of a throw wasn’t there, your friend wouldn’t be hitting buttons.
I think you’re partially right but you’re partially wrong. Here’s what I think about the RC glitch’s effect on the grooves.
-What makes N-Groove good is mobility. Having Small-Jump, Run and RC gives N a lot more options, and we all know how important options are in CvS2. However, RCs take away from this mobility. Small-Jumps are no longer as safe as it used to be, and Run isn’t nearly as useful anymore, seeing as the opponent can blow through whatever move you throw out, with the exception of another RC. So, in short, RCs beat N-Grooves best advantages.
-K and P-Groove do well against C and A Grooves, because their general playing style keeps the RC glitch’s impact on the game to a minimum. JD and Parry tones down the dominance of RCs.
-N-Groove works well against K and P Grooves, because since K and P-Grooves can’t RC, N-Groove is free to use its mobility to its best use. While K and P minimize the effectiveness of RCs, N-Groove still has the advantage in mobility, and doesn’t need RCs to win.
-C and A Grooves work well against N because, like mentioned earlier, N-Groove’s huge advantage in mobility is minimized by RCs, while C and A’s best advantage, power, still remains. In fact, RCs actually increase C and A’s advantages. RCs allow C to turtle a lot more effectively, and if the C-Groover is sitting on three levels, trying to crack the turtle shell puts you at risk of eating a super. As for A-Groove, RCs provide more setups, as well as a safe way to build meter.
-I don’t agree with you that N-Groove is no longer a viable choice in tournament situations, whether they are double or single elimination…well, in North America anyway. However, in Japan, I DO think that N-Groove is an unsafe choice for those who want to WIN the tournament. It’s not because the Japanese use a single elimination format, it’s because the Japanese use different tournament rules than we do. In Japan, all participants must choose their groove, team AND order, and stick with it throughout the entire tournament. Thus, they have to choose a team that is not easily countered, because if they run into a team that counters their own, all is lost. In North America, everyone is free to change their teams repeatedly throughout the tournament. If you run into an opponent where your main team is countered by his main team, you can just switch your team after a match loss, giving you a good chance at coming back.
Now, K-Groove, P-Groove and C-Groove have an answer to everything. No matter how bad your matchups are, K-Groove can rely on JD to keep the match close, P-Groove can parry, and C-Groove can out turtle you. As for A-Groove, no matter how bad your matchups are, you can rely on landing that one Custom Combo to keep the match close, or to make that huge comeback. As for N-Groove, if your team runs into an A-Groove team that coincedentially counters your team’s specific order, you’re gonna have a particularly difficult time finding alternate solutions to cover up your disadvantages.
THAT is why K and P Grooves have gone up in value, while N Groove has gone down in value, in Japan. I don’t think the same thing will happen in North America, because of our tournament rules…
I think RC’ing shouldn’t be allowed, but hey…it’s hard…But once u get the hang of it, you can abuse the hell out of it, and just abuse a set of moves over. I think we all should just play with the original game set and not rely on a glitch that was not supposed to meant to be in there.
I have only been playing CVS2 for 7 months now and even still I dont consider myself really good, I do however understand alot of the priority in all grooves and in all characters, I pretty much know what level of tier (meaning high, mid, or low tier). I have developed alot of skills in the game by my mentors and friends whose names I will keep anonymous however lets just say they are about the best in Toronto, ofcourse without trying to sound like I am bragging because that is not the message I was trying to get out, all I was trying to imply was that at least I didnt learn from scrubs. who think they are good.
anyhow my character I most use in A-groove are Chang, Nakkoruru, and Mai.
in C-Groove I mostly use Sagat, Vega, and Bison.
in K-Groove I use Chang, Vega, and nakkoruru.
But I have learned how to use other characters aswell and in my oppinion this is good because you dont want to use the same charcters all the time or other players will figure out how to beat and overcome your style, I can beat some of my friends nad alot of people who play in Downtown Toronto
Because Not only can I mix up my characters but I can play 3 totally different Grooves in a NOT BAD fashion.
And this is something for all you beginners to think about and consider,
A) learn other grooves ( then you can
begin to understand that groove
and know how to beat other
opponents who use it).
B) Learn other characters ( Do this to
mix up you team so other players
have a harder time to look for your
mistakes).
C) Know your character’s Priorities ( do
this and abuse this technique
Here are some very basic techniques which I have been taught and maybe you might learn and enhance your game from: know your charater’s Anti-Airs ( when playing against someone who jumps alot if you can execute your anti-Air attacks perfectly then there is no way they can get in close to you by Air.
If your opponent is a roller such as N-groove, C-groove or A-groove wait for the roll and just walk forward and grab them out of the roll, in about 91%
of the time YOU will grab them first, the other 9% is if they have a quick enough roll and a fast Super you may eat his attack first.
Alot of times I notice alot of people start jabbing out when they see the roll, against those people I beat them all the time with bison roll Medium kick super. lets just say that the super hops over the jab if done fast enough and beats all jabbers. Sagats level 2 kick super aswell. people who play k-groove or p-groove always fall short to my friend because alot of times when you jump at them they think you are going to attack so they are ready to parry or JD, one thing I know for sure is that K-groove allows your regular moves to come out faster and stronger than any other groove and even more faster when you are in rage. In K-groove be carfull not to jump in and attack all the time because they are expecting it and when u do and they are one more JD to RAGE they will
JD and buffer a move into a super and k_goove supers are very strong too and the moves are faster.
anyways the way my friend handles this is he will jump-in Do Nothing at all and SUPER.
Anyways My fingers are a little sore from typing so I will take this opportunity to say happy Newyear and goodluck to all. and P.S. I am sorry Bok choy about what EX- MATT said to you
He is not a friend of mine and he made Toronto people look bad. I hope you dont hate me for it. I respect everything you said to EX-MATT. you were 100% right and He was 100%wrong.
I will write more some other time.
Ok, here’s my quick description of why no one uses S groove.
Advantages: Run, Small Jump, Dodge, Dodge attacks, Desperation
That’s about it. This groove literally has the least amount of advantages.
Disadvantages:
-Desperation gives you infinite lvl1 supers. Just to get the record straight, the majority of level1 supers suck ass.
-Dodges last a long time. Once you dodge, you’re committed to that dodge. Your opponent can do whatever he wants and you can only wait it out or dodge attack
-Dodge attacks aren’t invincible. Once you start the attack, you can get hit. You can dodge, attempt to hit a Sagat C.Fierce with your dodge attack, and get a suprise when you get hit and comboed into super. If someone is doing shoto rushdown against you, and you try to dodge and dodge attack, they can DP that shit.
-Your options against cross-ups are really limited. The lack of Safe Fall and/or roll, IMO, is a big disadvantage. Safe Fall can help a lot in situations where you don’t want to get crossed up when you get knocked down. And to top it off, if you dodge when you’re getting crossed up, you usually get thrown. You basically have to sit there and block it because you can’t attempt to roll past it like the roll grooves can.
If you compare this groove to the next most similar groove in terms of options, the most comparable is K groove, and which one would you rather have? It’s not to say that S groove isn’t playable at all, it’s just that the characters that are best in S groove (namely Sagat, but you could include bison, cammy, etc.) are better in other grooves. In fact, i have yet to see any character that is best in S groove, with the exception of Kyosuke, which isn’t even an option as far as I’m concerned.
I can see your point, but what about those characters than can combo lv1 super into lv1 super? i.e. Terry, Iori, etc. Doesn’t that prove to have some sort of redeeming quality?
Also, its usually the attacks with longer recovery that you dodge. Obviously I wouldn’t want to dodge a random jab. It’s after you dodge an attack with longer recovery that you use the dodge attack into super (into super). Or, if they’re too far away, the knockdown dodge attack (which usually has more range).
However, charging up is very hard to do, especially against good players. I’d say the main problem with S-groove is that you can’t start doing any real damage until more than 3/4 of your life is gone. One mistake = death.
ah well, looks like I’ll be switching to K anyway.
Command throws have special move properties, so it’s useful to learn sequences with them (gief,vice, etc…) but normal throws are basic, so trying to setup a throw is similar to asking how to setup a jump or how to setup a block, sure there might be one or two things you can put into words, but beyond that there’s no gain in memorizing IMO. It’s not that throws don’t work at a high level, it’s that the ‘set-up’ would involve playing that excat match over again, which of course isn’t possible.
Setups that cause your opponent to play a certain way(jump, block, jab etc) is part of the mindgame. They are equally as important as combos. If it’s not worth memorizing then players would have long forgotten the classic setup, crossup, s.jab, throw.
When strategizing for chess, we look at every available move. If we chose to ignore some, it could mean the difference between winning and losing. I’m not a quick-reflex/crazy-combo type player. I love to strategize. So I can never bring myself to ignore any trick no matter how insignificant it may seem.
I think we’re having this arguement because we don’t define a “setup” the same way.
Back in the days of ST, there were bonified set-ups. I think JChensor used the example of Dhalsim. Sim could use a Strong throw, followed by a Forward Slide, to set up another strong throw. This setup couldn’t be retaliated with normals or counter-thrown because the distance on Sim’s throw was greater then everyone else. There were ways out, but this is supposed to be a CVS2 thread.
Fast forward to CVS2. Those same techniques used to set up throws no longer work. You can jab a throw. You can C.short a throw. You can do all kinds of things that don’t involve DPs or counter-throwing. These, by technical definition, aren’t set-ups. They are part of the mental game, because you can use it to make your opponent mash on a button to stop the throw. My personal favorite is to find out what button they like to mash on, make them block the jab, and then counter their attack. But, there are many different ways to make your opponent react. Again, this is not a set-up, it’s part of the mind game.
The basic point James was trying to make was that in ST if you know a throw is coming you can still be pretty screwed. In CVS2 if you know a throw is coming you can avoid it 95% of the time.
In ST throws are NOT just counters to blocking. You can throw someone who is expecting a throw and trying their best to avoid it. In CVS2 throws are basically counters to blocking and rolling. There is no real ticking game in CVS2.
Well, the way I’m trying to put it is this: Throw Set-ups are just like any other set-up. They CAN go horribly wrong or not work (obviously), but there’s nothing that makes Throws more “set-up-able” than, say, a DP. I mean, let’s say you’re playing Hyper Fighting as Ryu and are pelting Guile in the corner with Fireballs. At one point, you just KNOW he’s gonna throw that Sonic Boom, so your Hurricane Kick over it and nail him in delay. There’s no particular set-up, but you can just “feel it” when he’s gonna throw it. That’s a Hurricane Kick set-up in as much as anything is a Throw Set-up, if you get my drift. I just don’t like making people think there are ways to “set-up” throws. I’m hoping people understand that Throws are highly integrated into gameplay, and that to land a Throw, you don’t have to have “set-ups”. Yet for some reason, Throws seem to be treated as “set-up-able” more than other stuff.
Yes, thewre are Throw Set-ups, I’ll agree. There are places where Throws will work more often than not. But they aren’t any different from any other type of “psychic DP”-like technique is all I’m saying.
Haha. Actually, he would. He “Always Touches a Button”, thus his nickname. ^^ It doesn’t matter if I never throw, he always touches a button. It’s just his nature. Nothing to do with Throws. It’s really funny. ^^
