CvS2: Inexperienced Sector

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
1

I did search the forum, didn’t find anything like this.

I don’t really play the game much. I will play it sometimes when I get bored with MvC2 or 3s. What I have noticed though is that its a turtler’s game more than rushing down like CvS1 was more about. (IMO, CvS1 was all about Nako cross-up’s and Sonic Boom’s galore…Sure, there was more to it, but I don’t really care…^_^) Anyway, when I first started watching people play CvS2, it seemed like everything was about which move has more priority. I am not sure how things are now, only because I havent touched the game for awhile now.

Anyway, the point of this thread I guess is to touch base on the basics. Not necessarily for me, but for anyone who is trying to get into the game more. (For me, only cause X-Box Live CvS2…^_^)

Some things to talk about:

  1. Are things still some what the same as they were before (as I mentioned about the more priority moves) If so, which characters moves have the most priority (besides Sagat and Blanka)?

  2. Which groove(s) are dominating?

Things not to talk about:

  • How to do combos Unless your talking about A-Groove combos, then you can I guess^_^

-monkey

2

Its been like that since SF2:WW. The fact is, out prioritizing your opponent works and it can produce excellent results. For example, if you are given the choice of either blocking a super or outprioritizing it with a move of your own, which would you choose? The second one, obviously, because you get higher returns for doing so.

Blocking also works because its a way around priority. Moves that have very high priority often have lots of recovery on it to prevent it from being abused. For example, say your opponent has a move that outprioritizes all of your moves, but you note that there is substantial recovery on it. Say he pulls the move on you and you see it ahead of time. Your choices are: pull a move of your own only to get outprioritized, block and do nothing, block and nail him on his recovery, beg/whine/cry your opponent to not use that move again. Obviously option 3 is the best choice.

Now, if your opponent pulls a move that seems to have a fair bit of cheese behind it, most people are more inclined to block and try to counter attack after rather than just counter attack right away. Players often turtle at the beginning because they don’t really know the game that well. As they get better, they block less and outprioritize more, if that option is available.

ChunLi

3

  1. Athena’s c.fp has more priority then Sagats c.fp. Rocks s.rh beats out almost every air attack. Most DP’s have invinicbilty frames like the shotos, joe’s tiger knee, and Iori. Moves like Rugals genocide does not and Ryo’s uppercut doesn’t either, but it has tons of priority.(+others) Honda’s wp heatbutt has invincibilty frames too.

  2. No groove is over powered or best, depends on who you pick. But, I would have to say that N is the best well rounded groove for just about any character because it offers the best mobility and the enhanced damage, but i would never say that it’s anyone’s best groove. Only problem about N is that its rather boring, it offers nothing unquie. It does have the building/breaking stock thing, but its not really that interesting. I would think that if a person can master P, then they would be unstoppable. I mean if u can parry EVERYTHING, then there isn’t much that people can do against you, but i dout that there is anyone who can parry everything because being able to predict everything without being predictable yourself is quite hard to do to say the least.

4

i think this question will fit in this thread, since it’s sorta newbie-ish. i’ve played the game for so long (since a while after it came out) but never got this down.

how do you do small jumps on the arcade stick?? my rate of successfully doing a small jump is lower than my rate of successfully roll-cancelling a blanka ball on the arcade. i can do small jumps perfectly fine on controller (just tap the direction lightly… although sometimes i still tap it too lightly and the character doesnt move… but most of the time its fine). but on the stick… if i tap it too lightly, it doesnt move, when i tap it a little harder, it becomes a regular jump. :frowning:

5

I’m kind of in the same boat as you. I don’t play seriously all that much, but I do get to see some of the best Norcal players at times, so here’s my viewpoint.

1.) There’s a lot to this game, probably more than any other SF game thus far. It has elements of every other SF game and a lot from KOF as well.That doesn’t automatically make it a good game however, but that’s not the point here.

One of the major things I’ve noticed is that characters that score knockdowns are good. In CVS2, a lot of characters can score knockdowns off of C.Jab or C.Short attacks. Some characters use throws to score a quick knockdowns. Once you score knockdowns, you can go for cross-ups. This footsie game is always important in SF games, but CVS2 has a lot of options to deal with it, depending on groove.

To change gears, turtling only seems to be a major part of the game because some of the best characters are turtlers. Blanka (top tier character) turtles 24/7. That may be an overstatement, cuz I’ve seen some top level Blanka players that don’t turtle, but on a more basic level people will. Once you learn to RC Electricity, and some ways to use it, Blanka’s general strategy changes a lot.

If you take a look at Sagat (the other undisputed top tier character) you see a more of a rushdown type of character. He’s good because he can crush a turtler’s guard and fast. When he does, he makes it hurt. Complete opposite of a turtle.

2.) In all reality, N groove dominates. A lot of charcters benefit from having Run as opposed to Dash. There’s very few characters that don’t need Run. Rolls, specifically roll cancelling, is also useful for almost all characters. Some characters are only playable because of their RCs (Yun and Gief come to mind), and some characters just get better with RCs (think Blanka). Combine that with small jump, safe fall, counter attack, and counter roll and you’ve got probably the most versitile groove.

I don’t think there’s really much concensus as to what groove is best after that. A lot of people will say K groove. Rage is pretty good with powerful characters and as long as you are good at landing your super, you should do well. Other people would say C is next, but I don’t think Air Guard is all that useful. I, myself, use A groove over C because of the damage and versitility that CCs provide in meter usage is too good to overlook. But, people still use C groove, so it can’t be that bad.

The only bad groove is S groove, mostly because other grooves have better ways to do what S does, and infinite level 1 supers just isn’t good. P groove is also low on the list, but theoretically, it’s got potential. I saw KSK playing at EVO and he rocked for the most part. He made me think P-Cammy is definitely worthy. For P-groove to get recognition, a top player is going to have to pick it up and start placing in tourneys with it. Most people i’ve seen that play P doesn’t play it seriously.

There’s one thing in CVS2 that is really great to me. You can literally play any character you want. Because of the different groove options (a lot of it due to RC) you can play any character (except maybe Kyosuke) and do well. I think the fact that it’s possible to win a tournament without Blanka and Sagat on your team means that there’s a lot more to the game than a lot of people give it credit for. Just my two cents.

6

  1. Almost everybody’s got one normal that has a high standing for some reason, even though it might be weak, like Eagle’s s.Short, I’ve snuffed a lot of stuff with it for some reason.

  2. K/A/N no particular order.

7

I heard in Japan that N isn’t dominating anymore because it doesn’t have a good counter to RC’s compared to the rest of the grooves. C-groove is still picked because it can air-block most RC’s. Also, judging from the super battle opera qualifiers in Japan it looks like P-groove is starting to pick up a bit. S groove still sucks.

8

as for grooves, at least at SVGL, K and especially C are the most popular.

This seems mostly in a response to how roll canceling has changed the game there. JD and Airblock are both useful in fighting against roll-canceling opponents.

9

I DID say “no particular order” for a reason. I still use N because of it’s ready level 1s and 3s. K is a good groove, but IMO, if you’re not adept at being able to JD that well, and just get hurt, it’s not good risk/reward ratio. Sure you’ll get a lvl 3, but the problem is being able to use it all the time. While you COULD get a full bar at least 2-3 times in a K groove match, JDing is sort of a must, since you’ll be able to get that lost health back, especially off counter hits, which will be your double edged sword as a K groove player.

Counter hits provide a hefty chunk of meter, but also do a lot of damage. So JDing is a must when you play. Though I make it sound like I’m bashing on K groove, I’m not, I myself have played it and had a little success with it. But I’ve seen a lot of people who play K groove do a lot of stupid things, not rushing (have a good run/small jump game is a MUST), turtling too much. They rely heavily on their supers to do a majority of their work, which is why they lose. IMO, K groove is like P groove (without the obvious implications), the whole idea is to just do as much damage with your normals, comboing or poking, and let your supers compliment when they’re available.

My own philosophy with these parry grooves = K = rushing and P = conservative. If you want a REAL turtle groove, P is the way to go, just sit there, parry what they try to do, and sit on a super which they’re probably not able to block/JD/parry against.

10

I didn’t want to quote the entire post…So that will do… :slight_smile:

Anyway, great post for one thing. Another thing, RCing isnt allowed in tourney play right? If not, why does that make it a big part of the game? I have seen a video of it, but I’m not sure exactly how its done. I tried back when I had CvS2 for DC, but I had no success. Maybe you (or someone else) could touch base with it alittle more.

I really understand what you were talking about and I guess I’m going to have to play a lot before getting results. I remember in CvS1, it didn’t take much to get “good”, but this game sounds like it has a lot of depth to it. Thanks for the input. :slight_smile:

-monkey

11

  1. Priority is still the dominant aspect in this game. Blanka, Sagat, Cammy and Vega are top-tier for their priority, and Bison is top-tier for his power (and to a lesser extent, his priority). Other characters who are popular for their priority are Chun-Li, Yamazaki, Honda, while characters who are more known for their power are Rolento, Sakura and Iori. Since the advent of Roll-Cancelling, a lot has changed though. It creates exceptions the game’s priority rules.

  2. Again, since the advent of Roll-Cancelling, a lot has changed. It used to be N, A and C, which are the grooves that can Roll-Cancel. Now, I think it’s a lot more evenly matched between all of the grooves, with the exception of S. Basically, C/A/N are used for whatever they’re good for, in conjunction with RCs. N has been on the decline, mostly because Run and Small Jump have lost a bit of their value to RCs. P and K have been on the rise, because they somewhat neutralize the power of RCs. All in all, the 5 non-S grooves are a lot more balanced nowadays.

Instead of just tapping it, try manually moving the joystick back through neutral, and into its OPPOSITE position. So, if you want to hop forwards, tap UF and then DB immediately. If you want to hop straight up, tap U and then D immediately. It doesn’t hamper your execution at all, and that’s what I do, just to make sure that I don’t normal jump by accident. It comes in handy during those intense matches where “gently tapping the joystick” just isn’t possible anymore.

12

RCs are allowed in tourney play.

CvS2 is much more of a poking game then alot of people would like it to be, but that’s how it is (in my experience, anyhow). S groove doesn’t suck like people make it out to, but its in no way the best groove.

13

Bison’s got awesome priority in some of his attacks. His crouching forward beats or trades Blanka’s major middle-range pokes (S. Strong, C. Fwd, C. Fierce).

I think A-groove is the strongest groove because you get two-button “I win,” and RC. Combining RC with very damaging combos and fast meter generation is just too good. RC Sakura’s fireball and then her guard-crush abilities is so powerful!

CvS2 isn’t really as much about turtling as people say … with most characters.

Blanka and Sagat, the two best characters, are monsters when it comes to rushing. Against characters who can’t duck Sagat’s s.jab, it’s hard to get him off of you once he’s in close range, and once he’s out he can just fierce. Blanka’s low-jump Roundhouse is just a monster, and Blanka’s fierce electricity deals what, 5% life and 40% meter after every knockdown? And because of their massive priority at the middle range, it hard to safely counterattack once they get on you.

I think that outside of maybe Vega, it’s best to rushdown. You just need to learn how to rush turtles a.k.a. lowjump that shit.

14

Re: Re: CvS2: Inexperienced Sector

I posted in a thread a while ago about RCing. It is here.

I was a bit rushed in my last post, so there’s a couple of things I want to point out as to what is the difference between playing top level CVS2 and the rest of us.

One thing I see top players do is throw correctly. Honestly, I haven’t gotten the grasp of how to throw people. I know you throw when someone tries to roll through your pokes. Getting people to roll is the hard part. Or getting people to turtle up when you want to throw is also hard. Some characters, like Sakura, just do that better. I like Geese a lot now because I’m able to work the same kind of Sakura mind games with him.

Other than that, it’s all about knowing your matchups. A lot of characters are playable because they can get their job done. If you lose your first character, but do 80-90%, you aren’t out of the game. All the really matters is that you’re either close or ahead towards the last match of the game. It makes it even more important to learn what to do and what not to do while in a matchup. I’d say the most important are being able to handle Sagat, Blanka, and Cammy with any character you play. There are times when you just can’t handle one of those with your characters. That’s when it pays to know all of your matches because you can change the order of your team if you’ve scouted your opponent head of time. In all reality, this is harder to do in tournaments, but easier to do in casual play.

15

Re: Re: Re: CvS2: Inexperienced Sector

If you can’t figure out HOW people use throws in CvS2, you REALLY need to assess your game plan. Throwing is the great equalizer in a match. Throwing is a life saver. It can stop pokes in some cases, stop some supers. If you don’t know throw setups, you’re at a loss, in your offensive AND defensive game. Offensive wise, because EVERYBODY throws numerous times during the match…I recall a match I had one time where pretty much 60% of the damage I did to the other guy was throwing. And though I’m not sure, throw damage remains the same through the match. Defensive wise, knowing throw setups will save you from the forementioned damage. There are MANY ways to setup throws, basically, if somebody stops a poke/combo or something to throw you off, there could be a throw coming.

You CAN exploit that sort of mind game with A groove in some instances, you start a throw setup, then when you throw, you activate, if all goes planned, that person will whiff the throw enabling you to do a custom. Using this knowledge against somebody is one reason to learn throw setups and techniques, otherwise, you’ll be left in the dust and kicking yourself for falling for something really dumb.

16

Just wanted to stop in and make two points.

  1. Best Groove w/o Roll Cancels is definitely N-Groove. When Roll Cancels are taken into account, I’ve heard that in Japan K-Groove has become the best Groove followed by C or A. N-Groove has dropped to almost worst Groove because it has no way to stop RC’s (as someone pointed out already). Of course, I’ve heard this second-hand, so it may not be accurate.

  2. There is no trick to Throws. There are no set-ups to Throws. The reason why people think Throws are so “complex” is because they don’t understand Throws. Throws aren’t a trick. There’s really no “tricks” to them. Simply put, Throws are one thing and one thing alone: They are a COUNTER TO BLOCK. Just like using a DP to stop a jump-in, THrows are used to stop a Block. Once you get that mentality in, Throws are much easier to understand. Throw set-ups are only good if they, in general, cause a brain-freeze from your opponent and they are scared into Blocking. Sure there are good situations to Throw that work more than others, but that’s because more often than not, people generally follow the same mental patterns thanks to human nature. You’ll get your Throws in if you scare your opponent into Blocking. Again, if you think of Throws as a Counter to Blocking, that’s the mentality you need to utilize them correctly.

Note: It’s MUCH different than in ST, because Throws in ST are hard to stop, many times, EVEN IF YOU KNOW they are coming. In CvS2, it’s a lot different because Throws have shorter range, so Throwing someone isn’t so simple. ST does have “Throw Set-ups” that are bona fide set-ups, just because not all characters ahve equal Throw Ranges and Throws reach so far, that some characters can’t stop them. But even then, landing Throws is tough if the opponent knows it’s coming and can Reversal with Specials well.

  • James
17

Yo everyone, I think I’m decent at this game, but I too am pretty inexperienced. Anyways, I got a question about rapid press special moves. And that is, is it better to press one button 5 times (i.e. HK 5 times for Chun-Li’s lightning legs) or is it better to go “piano method”? I usually always do the one button way, am I doin’ it “wrong”? And please note that I play Chun-Li in K-Groove, so RC’ing isn’t one of my concerns, BUT I’m considering using Blanka in A-Groove (even though I HATE him, well fighting against him anyways).

O yeah, and as long as I’m here I might as well ask about the timing on Blanka’a CC’s. Whenever I do the Jab Blanka Ball, it always hits and never whiffs, like it’s supposed to. Any advise?

Thanks in advanced.

  • Geronimo
18

The piano method is the one recognized by most people as the easiest one to RC, but IMO, if you can press the button really fast, that works too. It all depends on what you’re comfortable with.

Well, you’re probably too close, just study the one on Gunter’s video. You could always do the OG Blanka custom in tragic’s 2nd A-Groove movie, the sweep -> jungle hop custom, which is equally good.

19

That is right. Best groove without RCs is probably N. BUT RCs are in the game, and many people use them nowadays. With RCs taken into account, it is hard to distinguish which is worse between N-Groove and S-Groove. N-Groove literally has nothing to stop good RC characters, and assuming the N-Groove player can’t RC, or can only RC as good as the opponent and not better, the N-Groove player cannot expect to win.

N-Groove’s main problem against an RC character is they can’t jump. The RC character can just anti-air with their invincible move of choice. Charge moves are the best example (headbutt, psycho crusher, etc)–and it doesn’t matter if the N-Groove player crosses up, because the RC player can simply hold the joystick the same way and still RC it to do the anti-air the other way. Of course, it doesn’t have to be a charge move–they’re all invincible, so it’s whatever you prefer really.

Additionally, since N-Groove is a heavily offensive groove, an N-Groove character really has no way to get in on an RC character. If the RC Character matches N-Groove’s pokes with invincible moves, then the N-Groove player will be quickly beaten unless they start turtling–in which case they’re in an even worse position.

The supposed solution at first to RC characters in N-Groove was to build meter and counter-roll+punish random RC blocked moves. However, players quickly learned that most counter-roll/blocked move situations are still in the RC player’s advantage. Usually, there is time to just do another RC move.

A lot of people wonder why Japan suddenly quit picking N-Groove in tournaments–well, it’s simple when you look at the situation. Taking into account the above, a good number of Japanese players probably have RC characters on their team in tournaments. N-Groove characters lose to RC characters, and Japanese tournaments are single-elimination. Why risk playing N-Groove when the tournament is over as soon as you face a good RC player? Japanese players, IMO, are scared to pick N-Groove now because if they get paired up against one good RC opponent, they will lose the tournament.

Anyway, N-Groove isn’t really viable anymore in any tournament situation where there are good RC players. The best counter for RC characters I think is K-Groove, followed by P-Groove (when played well), then finally C. C-Groove I think is more common now because it can handle RC decently, but can also use RC itself.

Hope this helps! Keep doing invincible moves, everyone!

fubarduck

20

Re: Re: Re: Re: CvS2: Inexperienced Sector

I guess I should elaborate a bit more, because when I said “throw correctly”, I really meant landing a throw.

I understand what you said, but what I thought I was mentioning was a bit more than that. I get tech hitted a lot. In fact, I’d have to say somewhere around 50% of the throws I do get tech-hitted. And that is just with the guys I play with at school (not counting scrubs that don’t know better), not any of the good SVGL players. I have noticed that the better players also tech-hit more, and I accept that. Also, Sagat is just harder to throw mostly because everyone is always mashing on Fierce anyway. However, I notice that players like Nelson and Cole work throws into their game a lot better than I do. I really can’t comment too much on those players because I haven’t played at SVGL in a long time or even seen them play since EVO.

Anyway, I guess it just becomes harder to throw good players and not get teched because it just seems easier to tech-hit in this game.