Haha yeh i did write to Udon to make sure that they don’t make him look like a Minstral again.
Heres the ranking chart i have
Indeed :sad:
Good God! No knock to you, man. Nor am I talking down to the writers/players/publisher of Gamest. I’m sure those were an honest assessment of the publishers back in 1994, a mere 3 months or so after ST’s release. But you can see the evolution of a game over time. When MvC2 came out, Blackheart and Doom were untouchable top tier. These days, they’re gimmick assists for the most part.
Look at the chart you posted, how times change. It basically lists sumo boy as top tier. Dhalsim is sorta crap compared to how he’s assessed today. Claw and Cammy are even? Really? The wicked nature of Old Sagat had yet to be revealed. There are very few overwhelming match-ups, only a couple for Geif. Fun read.
As for Dee Jay’s measure of pulchritude, I don’t mind his character design, and his match-up portrait is silly but not awful. It’s the in-game sprite that’s atrocious. His forehead slopes like it’s been hacked. He’s got Leno chin. Worst of all, his persistent smile is located where most people’s eyes are. And he never closes his mouth, even when he’s KO’ed or time loss, he’s got that ugly grin. He makes the ugliest face during time loss. I can’t even describe it.
I respect the fact that you are using some form of source material to back up your agruements. At least you are not making stuff up and the trying to agrue your point.
However, very honestly, and in a 'non-flaming" tone, that chart is VERY outdated now. It would be like using a 1491 map of the “flat” world to sale around it today…
At the time it was created the chart was very relavent. However, it is more a piece of history now, and holds very little merit as a reliable source of information.
To figure out the counter pick lists watch a lot of ST, buy YBH, and play/talk to experienced players.
There is no 100% sure counter pick list, but overall you’ll see patterns and begin to understand the “bigger picture” of ST. :china:
And remeber, characters have beaten there counters many times in tourny play. They have to work harder/ play smarter to win, but they still have won none the less. Counter picking will only help you so much.
yeh i knew this was very outdated, this is partially the reason for creating this thread.
Its a piece of history now, surprised it hasnt fallen to pieces yet. 
And yeh i agree with what you saying, it is more down to the player not the character to how well they do.
DSP is also a good Dee Jay player aside from Afrolegends in the U.S. And on another note I thought about how the match-up list should be ordered, and I want to see if y’all agree.
Serious Advantage = (8:2)
Advantage = (7:3)
Fair = (6:4), (5:5), (4:6)
Disadvantage = (3:7)
Serious Disadvantage = (2:8)
I lumped together three different ratios together in the fair match-ups because all of them are completely winnable on any level. Although there might be a slight advantage/disadvantage in 6:4/4:6, they can be easily overcome. So for example Dee Jay’s list would look like this:
Serious Advantage:
Honda (8:2)
Advantage:
Blanka (7:3)
Cammy (7:3)
Fei Long (7:3)
Fair:
Dic (6:4)
T.Hawk (6:4)
Zangief (6:4)
Ken (6:4)
Ryu (5:5)
Chun (5:5)
Guile (5:5)
Claw (5:5)
Boxer (4:6)
Disadvantage:
Dhalsim (3:7)
O.Sagat (3:7)
Serious Disadvantage:
None
DJ only doesn’t do well against two of the top tiers. He’s even with vega and only at a slight disadvantage against Boxer.
Okay, about Gief countering Rog. Gief’s design maybe a natural counter to Rog but if Rog plays this match smart it’s no longer 7/3 in gief’s favour. Yes if Rog just mindlessly pokes and rushes he will run into Gief’s low RH and start eating SPD ticks. But if Rog is smart and more selective in his attacks then this match becomes much harder for gief. The point to remember is that Gief has to guess a little more when he advances and tries to knockdown with that low RH, whereas Rog can be a little more reactive with his attacks and counters (low rush as a reaction counter to missed low RHs and stand FP if gief keeps walking). So yea, probably an advantage to Gief, but nothing like 7/3 gief if both players are equally skilled.
And T.Hawk wins against Chun because if he ever gets in, Chun has no real answer for that neg-edge SPD tick madness. Of course, getting in is the hard part lol.
DJ also has problems with Ryu/Ken. Probly why he is mid-tier.
Old Guile/Sim is 9/1 sim? I don;t get that one either.
Another thing that keeps Dee Jay in the good-but-not-great fields is that while he has few bad match-ups, he doesn’t dominate quite like the God-tier level characters. Dhalsim, Old Sagat, Boxer, and Claw not only have few weak match-ups (4:6 isn’t bad at all), they each have multiple match-ups where they get to dictate tempo and force the opponent to work around them. The oft talked about risk:reward ratio is vastly in the God-tier characters’ favor.
Old Sagat and Claw at the beginner to intermediate levels are almost auto-win against more than half the field. Tigers and wall dives all day can win you matches against a large majority of novice players. Even at the higher levels, you can count on cheesing at least 20% of the opponent’s life through the course of a match while they work to close the gap. Dee Jay’s not weak. He’s awesome against Honda, and fairly good against much of the cast. But Dee Jay can’t sit back and force the opponent to do the work.
Again, he’s not weak, he’s simply not as strong.
I think that Old Guile is slower in just about every way than new Guile. He might also have to charge longer, which is death in a mid-screen fireball fight. But the movement/jumping/startup speed is really the difference. If Dhalsim gets ahead and just goes into half-screen keep away mode, Old Guile can’t really do anything to close the gap and make up the difference. Now, if Old Guile had CE Guile’s damage, then the trades would allow him to catch up. It’s a good thing that Old Guile is nothing like CE Guile. CE Guile is basically untouchable in AE.
More info about Gief v Rog, this is one of the few (the only?) match where Gief gets to dictate the play from the get-go. Gief’s lariats and rapid-fire standing jab ruin much of Rog’s rushes, with the exception of the max-distance low rush, but doing that requires Rog to be in just the right position, and it’s difficult for him to get there with Gief ever advancing and/or rapid-firing standing jabs to force Rog to block instead of being able to walk backward. Gief counts more on the lariat than the crouching roundhouse for knockdowns, since a misguessed whiffed sweep is rush bait for Rog. Gief can win on his pokes alone, but if he knocks Rog down, the ease of timing a safe jump against Rog means Rog will lose at least a quarter of his life.
rog can beat gief, its not 3/7
i think it can go either way but i tend to win that match quite often using this style i learned by watching daigo last year combined wiht my brothers nasty cheap style of rog. Just spam low strong, when he jumps which you must watch for since his jump is quick, low fierce, if he does standing jabs at a distance do a low kick rush with short on occasion not every time or he will do a few jabs then sweep you. do low rushes at proper distance and lariat wont hit it. Dont be overly aggressive, be patient, when he is in his corner dont attack, let him come out to you, cause if he knocks you down near corner thats 2 piledrivers not 1.
Graham
When you get knocked down and he is gonna do his piledriver combo, block it, dont try some fancy shit and take the 2 hits ahead of the piledriver, accept that youll be piledrived if you messed up.
One last dont be a dumbass strat, dont ever EVER do your super if you thikn he will block it, thats a guaranteed piledriver for him , and if its a japanese player, super spd.
How does DJ have a problem with Ryu/Ken? Please explain.
I’m not saying DJ should be amongst the top tier, I just want him to be bumped up to upper tier at the least. Simply for the fact that he has better matchups than anyone within mid or upper tier.
And one thing I want to know is why DJ has a 4:6 matchup against Boxer. He can keep him out with maxouts over a distance. At close range he has c.strong and c.fierce to beat out Boxer’s rushes, and can punish head butts with c.forward or c.roundhouse. And when Boxer is knocked down he is very prone to safe jumps, and with DJ’s crossup j.forward leading to easy half-life combos is great. Plus he has upkicks to break out of tick traps. As far as I can tell this should be a 5:5 matchup. So will someone show me what gives Boxer the slight advantage?
That match up 6/4 (slight advanage) to Ryu.
There are HELLA match videos to prove this: SBO, Xmaina, Mikado, A-cho. Just search you tube you’ll find them. No one needs to overly explain anything about this. The answers are there.
To sum it up. Ryu is 6/4 b/c:
Faster Fire Ball.
Better Traps.
Easier AA/reversal.(DP)
Better Super.
At the right distance, RYU can throw and play the FB zone with little worry. DJ can’t match Ryus fireball speed, or really punish fireballs if Ryu throws them at the right distances.
If Ryu can get his zone set up, and DJ tries to get over a FB:
DJ jumps from afar, Ryu does crouching RH AA.
DJ jumps and attacks, Ryu takes a half a step forward and DPs.
DJ jumps from mid range, jump round house AA.
Again if you don’t beleive me, just search out game play tourny videos. You’ll see many examples of what I am saying! Good luck!
According to that Japanese chart Ryu is a 5:5 matchup against Dee Jay. Dee Jay has good speed and distance on his jump allowing him to maneuver around fireballs more easily than other characters, plus he has short upkicks which passes through fierce fireballs. So if Dee Jay jumps over a fireball at mid-screen during the startup, he’ll be able to land before Ryu can pull off a DP(or even better, punish him). And he has his own fireball to cancel out Ryu’s for a decent time. So Dee Jay can deal with fireball traps just as well as any other character, so I’m not sure why Ryu’s fireball trap should be the definition as to why he has the advantage over DJ.
But I will look up some DJ vs. Ryu match vids for myself so I can see what you’re talking about.
T. Hawk vs Chun:
Besides the no answer for neg SPD stated before, Chun has a serious problem with Hawks body splash (j. D + FP). This is very safe on wakeup and random jump ins if shes not in the air already. This is just compounded even more if the player is using O.Hawk due to the increased cross up and priority.
And of course the j.jab of doom wreaks havoc on her air priorities.
Take a even skilled Chun vs an even skilled Hawk and I still think it’s gonna end up fairly even for the most part. But put someone like Toutanki, Mayakon or a few others and Chun is in deep trouble if just one throw, spd or otherwise, gets off.
Ryu can throw Fireballs Faster. So every once in awhile it force DJ to do something other than throw a FB himself. THis means ryu controlls the tempo of the match.
Sometimes DJ is FORCED to block a Ryu FB in a FB war. He can’t jump over it (fireball to close and hits him out of the hit jump), can’t throw a FB himself ( no charge, just threw one), and can’t flash kick through it (No charge).
Yeah check it out. I would even be willing to say 5.5/4.5 to Ryu. There is a slight advantage there. You’ll see in those videos. I’ll look too, so you can see what I have seen.
I watched a few Dee Jay vs. Ryu matches on http://gfb.combovideos.com/ and on youtube(I just typed in “ST Dee Jay”). And admittedly ryu did win the majority of those matches. So as for now I will agree that ryu does have the slight advantage. But I don’t want to say he has the advantage simply because he has a better fireball trapping game, because Dee Jay has a lot of options to get around the trap. Other charge fireball characters like Chun and Guile are considered 5:5 matchups against ryu yet they don’t have as many options around his fireball trap that Dee Jay does.
Chun and Guile aren’t 5-5 against Ryu. They’re both at a small disadvantage (smaller than DJ.)
Chun has super. Guile has backfist. DJ has fuck-all.
Fatboy is too polite to say this but he’s been talking about real world street fighter. Where human beings move joysticks and press buttons. Your counter arguement is based on Corner-Trap’s dream world street fighter. Where DeeJay rides a polka-dot teacup past Jupiter. Just take fatboy’s word for it dude.
Don’t forget about the unicorns who crap rainbows and the pixies carrying fruity colored treats.
Then why are DJ, Guile, and Chun listed as 5:5 matchups against Ryu? Can I see some other match-up lists aside from the translated one from sobatcarnival.
EDIT:
I don’t like to just take peoples “word for things”. I’d much rather get an explanation so I can fully understand whats going on.
That old T.Akiba chart lists Honda-Blanka as 5-5. That’s just totally fucking batshit crazy. I mean foaming at the mouth throwing feces bonkers. Forrest Gump beating Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption and Quiz Show loco.
EDIT:
Ok fair enough. Best bet is to actually play the match a bunch. Both sides.
I am not trying to name drop to prove my point or say look my d*ck is bigger than yours.
However
Last weekend at EVO, I spent last day playing with G.Wolfe, Valle, Cole, Nelson, w/ J Beasley (spelling?) in beasley’s hotel room. We played a boat load of ST. In fact some of the best ST played durning of EVO was played in that room (imo). All those guys a great players, and have a wealth of knowledge!
We spoke about many SF match ups. DJ versus Ryu was one of them. Namely how to beat a DJ as good as Afro Legends, and as I said b4 the consensus in the room was:
Ryu beats DJ with the FIRE BALL game. If DJ gets in he has a chance to win. That simple.
You can analyze it a million different ways. But that is the base of the match. Try not to make the match too complicated.
As I said before, all the answers are out there (in videos). Just keep looking. :tup: Once you watch them you easily see why.
And Nohoho? LOL? I love you man? LOL :lovin: