Counter-Characters

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
41

some of your guys counter characters are really jacked up.

-i wouldn’t necessarily call hibiki a counter character to sagat. and i DEFINITELY wouldn’t call hibiki a counter to blanka. blanka can cr hk and it outranges all of hibki’s normals. RC slash? RC hop from blanka which will get you fucked up. i don’t really see how hibiki counters sakura either, but i’m not very experienced in that matchup.

-haohmaru counters blanka?!?! WITH WHAT? nobody will be dumb enough to do random RC ball to get slashed. RC electricity and blanka’s normals own haohmaru. i saw jwong play A-haoh vs BAS’s a-blanka at evo, and jwong almost got perfected. it was an ugly sight to see.

-sagat is eagle’s hardest match because if he telegraphs/sees eagle’s standing fp/crouching fk, he rolls through and fucks you up big time. eagle can really only win this match by punishing whiffed pokes, but it’s still his hardest matchup hands down.

-and i wouldn’t really say that chunners counters sagat. he can standing lk all day for poking, then bait a standing mp from chunners, then do a standing fp into tiger cannon super. chun li will just cross him up right? no way. i remember trying to crossup Ino at evo with my A-chunners and as soon as i jumped, he would walk towards where i jumped from, and do a DEEP fp tiger uppercut. trust me, i’m a huge chunners player, and this match isn’t very fun.

ANYWAY- you people are saying that kyo counters cammy. would you mind saying how/why? i play against a lot of scrubby cammy’s and i’d like to know how that counter match works out.

42

I don’t think Hibiki’s as good as your rankings make her out to be. She’s one of those characters that’s great on paper (just a good as A-Bison according to good players at one point), but after players around the US and Japan seriously gave her a try (I spent countless hours learning her in A-groove myself), the sad realization came that she has too many holes in her character design to be played seriously.

waits for Gunter to get angry and reply violently to my post with all capital letters…

Anyway, in serious tourney play, I purposely try to match up my Sakura or Blanka against Hibiki everytime I play a person who uses her. I also play Bison too keep in mind (and I HATE losing so don’t think I’m a masochist or anything either :lol: )…

I put Hibiki in the same ranking as Chun-li. Both are hyped up a lot more than they deserve to be on the character rankings. Again, good for me… nobody knows my elite secret counter tactics :smiley: . They think they actually have the advantage when they see me pick the matchup… Either that or I’m an idiot. Either way is fine :).

also, Blanka > Haohmaru… bad

43

Version from Japan? Or just some guy named Version??

44

Haomaru > Guile

45

…

Guile > chunli

his c.hp beats her jump in almost 100% of the time. His pokes keep her out of range for her mediumxxsuper.

46

It can, and that is a COUNTER poke, not a RANDOM poke. However, Gief has the ability to walk back to cover the 14 frames of recovery that the lariat has (i.e. create space before the recovery). Cammy can’t do anything about the 22 frames of recovery on her far s.rh.

**

The thing is this - Kick Lariat HITS all of Cammy’s pokes outside of c.forward, which will WHIFF against it. So the odds are in your favor that you are going to hit a poking Cammy. There is absolutely no reason NOT to do RC Kick Lariats against her. It takes a certain degree of anticipation, but that’s a part of all footsies - you set the opponent up to do something (using s.short, s.forward, and fierces) to which you have a set counter. Only with Gief, that counter is the same for all of Cammy’s moves… there’s no “if she does this, I’ll do this… but if she does THAT, I have to do THIS.” You RC Kick Lariat.

**

People DP Cammy Drills on reaction. It’s far easier to Kick Lariat. For her true pokes, you do the same as every other character - condition your opponent and then counter. And I’m not sure about Blanka, as I don’t use him in A-Groove, but I do know that you have to hit the Electricity at the tip of your punch (i.e. where your hitboxes are but your vulnerable boxes are NOT). So while Blanka is sitting there with RC Electricity, Balrog has to get to the range where his fierce will hit a non-RC’d Electricity if he feels like doing any sort of damage to Blanka. Blanka can slide because Balrog is gauging the distance by walking FORWARD - Balrog has no charge so there is no threat of super. Either Balrog fierces or he doesn’t, and if he does, the slide connects. There isn’t much risk for Blanka in that situation since Balrog is a charge character.

47

How often does balrog walk forward? In my experience balrogs dont walk forward all that often…

48

I’ll explain those match-up IMO later when I have time. Hibiki can slice Blanka after any fierce attack, but will admit a Blanka with low jump can beat her. Haohmaru isn’t a counter cause the BB can be fierce, he just for some reason turtle very well against him. Kcxj was right about the Sagat/Hibiki match. It’s more even than anything, I forgot to delete it after righting it down. As for Yama<Rolento, Yama can’t catch Rolento, which lets Rolento build meter then activate. Naturally those matches will always rely on who has more skill also, but at higher level of play I stick with what I wrote.

49

Why would I ever reply violently and in all capital letters? I have never ever done that, and I find offense that you would suggest that I do. Capital letters are means of emphasis, and are easier to do than using the vB coding for italics. That is when I use caps. Posting in all-caps indicates shouting. And I have never ever in my life gotten into a shouting match over a stupid video game. If you guys have, then you need to grow up.

And also, I recognize the flaws in Hibiki’s design, which is why I have stopped using her (and now am messing with Yamazaki).

HOWEVER…

**

I actually like Hibiki in a match with Sak. Sak can’t do RC Hurricanes against her for fear of counter-into-custom, and Hibiki’s pokes are even-to or better-than Sak’s.

Blanka is fun also because he can’t even straight up jump against her. He can never ever Ball, because Hibiki can slash it back whether she was blocking it or not. Fun match (unless it’s a sit there RC Electricity Blanka).

**

Bison owns her up (at least, A-Hibiki). That’s the main reason I dropped her.

**

C-Chun is one of the most bullshit characters in the game, bar none. She’s a much better character than Hibiki.

50

From what I know about top-tier…

A-Sak beats Sagat fairly badly, Chun REALLY badly, and according to Ricky… Guile pretty badly. She has a small advantage on Blanka also. She apparently doesn’t have ANY disadvantaged matches except for maybe Vega. I don’t mind fighting her with Hibiki either.

Guile beats most any non-low jump character except for Blanka, Sakura, Hibiki and Iori.

Cammy is roughly even with or has a minor disadvantage against most top tiers. She is probably the hardest character for most mid-tiers to beat, though. Her hardest matches are probably Sagat, Chun Li and Iori.

Chun Li is fairly even with or has a slight advantage against most of the top tier. She does well against CBS and Bison, dies horribly to Sakura, and to a lesser extent Morrigan.

Blanka has an advantage against Sagat and Guile, and is pretty even with the rest of the top tier. His hardest matches are Chun Li and Sakura… and also Hibiki if he’s in a non-low jump groove.

A-Bison doesn’t really do well against ANY of the top tiers apparently… until he fills up his meter. He then has an advantage over anybody. His hardest matches are probably Chun Li and Guile.

C-Sagat might seem to be disadvantaged to a large chunk of the top tier, but he does so much damage with small openings and has so many tools at his disposal that any match becomes winnable. His hardest matches are Sakura, Guile, Blanka and Hibiki.

51

A big reason why I don’t like Chun-li is because no matter how long and hard you practice d.LP, d.LP, d.MP xx super, there’s always going to be that time where you mess up the MP link and eat a raged Blanka super for your trouble. I don’t think it’s worth the risk to play her in tourny anymore (and especially not as your R2 character —> what I use to do).

I absolutely hate it when I face a runaway Vega or Rolento, and I don’t think I’ve ever beaten a competent Sakura when I had Chun-li before. Against Sagat, I can’t even believe some of the bullshit that character can do. My main (and possibly only) tactic consists of sit there, RC sbk when Sagat gets close.

I noticed Daigo dropped Chun for Cammy at the EVO finals. Cammy is a character with almost as much reward but a LOT less risk. And in the end, not leaving yourself open in CvS2 is all that matters. Nobody’s execution is ever 100% perfect.

On paper, I think Chun-li is number one in the game. After field experience however…:bluu: Anyway, Ohnuki was the player who started this huge Chun-li trend right? Well we can’t all be Ohunki, so I for one am going to conceed and put this charcter second to everybody else I already play.

Gunter:
I can’t believe you actually quoted me poking fun at you. When I read your replies to other people’s posts, for some reason it always looks like you’re deeply offended and are yelling back at them everytime that’s all. I find it hilarious is case anybody hasn’t noticed it yet :lol:

Anyway, I never just walk up to Hibiki and randomly try to attack with RC hurricane when I have Sakura. I know about the risks and possible counters before I do any kind of attack (especially if an A-groover has full meter). RC fireball eats up anything Hibiki does on the ground (I use all three strengths depending of the situation). And that’s pretty much it. Unless Hibiki intends on sitting there all day doing nothing but d.MP, the rest takes care of itself. Hibiki gives me an opening with every other single attack she can do.

About Blanka, I don’t think repeated sparks of RC electricity is any good other than to build meter from far away. Technically you’re not even attacking your opponent. At mid to close range, I say you’re better off sticking a normal attack in between if you absolutely must be cool and show off how good you are with this stupid move. Keep the opponent at bay (and from approaching on the ground) with a d.MK or d.LK. RC electricty is best for anti-air or when used unexpectedly (when coming out of block or hit stun for example). I heard BAS still likes going nuts with this move for some reason. Although he’s one of the main reasons I use A-Blanka in the first place, I haven’t seen him win a major tourney yet doing that (my friend even told me he let BAS play his game at EVL, and BAS nearly gets perfected by some random sucky dude because literally he tries to do nothing but RC claw rolls with Vega :dissillusioned: ).

52

Bison vs. Guile?

I can poke at Guile all day with scissor kick strings (until he has meter). At worse I’ll eat a s.MP. I use RC MK scissor everytime I have my charge and Guile throws out a boom (free CC if I have my meter). At the right angles, my jump-ins eat up all of Guile’s anti-airs. People are talking about Guile anti-air d.HP like it’s the next coming of Jesus or something. If I can recall… that move sucks.

Anyway, I’d like to see how Guile counters Bison if you have the time Buk.

Oh and yes, I agree Bison sucks against everybody else. Sagat and Blanka need to die.

53

If she gets close, can’t rolento just RC hop away from her and re-zone?

54

chun can play better footsie though and she can just wait for u to throw a sonic boom and jump in.

55

When I play, I usually tell my opponent to jump in and then I can do a Dragon Punch.

56

lol. some MA there.

the thing is with guile, he has great recovery in his sonic boom, but for his AAs (c.hp s.mp) to work you have to be at a certain angle to execute it, and c.hp is best used at it’s peak, s.mp too but not as much as c.hp, but the thing is with chunli is that her jump is fast so a well timed jump in after a sonic boom will usually be succesful.

57

To clarify Ouro’s point, I think the Vega vs. Yamazaki beatdown is the worst among good characters. Obviously characters like Hibiki just severely violate some of the minor characters that don’t have a chance. But Vega owning Yamazaki is probably the worst match you’re going to see in a tournament type setting where both people are trying to win.
For an example on how bad I think that match is, when I play SiN in tournament, I will actually leave Yamazaki off my team (and he’s probably my best character) just because he MIGHT pick Vega. Sometimes he does the same. That match is just throwing away ratio points.

Other matches that are fun to play around with.
Honda vs. Kyo/Iori. I’ve used this match in tournaments a few times. The only problem with the match is that you’re “winning” by doing absolutely nothing. It’s not a very impressive win and if by the ratio game you end up behind, the comeback isn’t really guaranteed. But still, Honda wins these matches mostly by sitting still and just following the flow chart to counter what comes at him. Pretty easy match, especially for me since I have K-Honda and can JD RCs.
Honda’s good on a lot of small characters who rely on pressuring you to win. He’s better than people realize against A-Sakura. He can get out of the way of RC hurricane pretty easily. Lots of different options, the easiest of which being duck and roll.

Yamazaki vs. Cammy. I love this match. I’ll try to set it up whenever I can find it. Yamazaki’s good jab (and what you can chain after it, blocked or not) changes the tempo of the fight so much. She depends on her in close game so much and Yamazaki can almost totally take that element of the game away. It turns into Cammy working hard to get in close and then getting shoved out with about half her guard meter chopped off. I like this fight with C/N-Yamazaki better than my K-Yamazaki (frankly they’re just better characters but besides that. JD isn’t worth much against Cammy and neither is guessing with the super, especially since both will actually lose to the same move: a cannon drill), mainly because RC dust kick is the absolute best thing against Cammy. If you ever get unsure what to do, that move is so very rarely wrong.
Cammy has trouble closing the gap on Yamazaki and you can set the distance at your leisure. It’s not a traditional ownage match where you can do one or two things over and over and the other character can’t counter it at all, but you always have way more options and you can set the game to whatever you’re more comfortable at. Frankly I think aside from Yamazaki close fierce occasionally missing Cammy up close (for no apparent reason), he can fight her up close also; distance game is just easier.

Eagle vs. Guile. I really like this match. I haven’t really proved it yet (mainly because if I match up Eagle against whoever Guile’s with, usually Chun or Sagat, Eagle’s gonna get torched). Eagle’s one of the few who can match Guile at mid range in terms of priority and damage.
Plus to be honest there really aren’t that many good Guile players. Lots of people play him but not that many really understand the character on a level where winning the match would really prove anything. So I really don’t think this match is proven by any stretch, it’s a match I have confidence in.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

58

Honda > Gief

59

Kyo’s c.mp is toooooooo goood. it stops her spiral arrow, and her c.hk, plus he can link c.mp, c.fp, qcf+p as a poking string and it all combos if the c.mp connects

60

I think Cammy kills Kyo, personally.

Except if you play Cammy players that are like ‘random spiral arrow! sweep!’ But Kyo dies to 1338 (even better than 1337) Cammy strategy of walk up randomly press HP.