I think being able to crouch during the demonflip is more detrimental then perceived. Gouken’s df arc kinda flies over people more then Akuma’s, making it more difficult to connect things with the opponent. Because Gouken, doesn’t have a dp, the ex df was an ok wakeup since you might be able to get the opponent to block standing and get to safety if you land the df kick to block string out. Now since it is no longer an overhead, if you demonflip while they are right next to you on wakeup, they can just crouch and wait for everything to whiff. Once you land its a full punish. Also I don’t see any solid reason why an opponent can fall for the df sweep anymore since plenty of the demonflip pressure can be negated by just crouching. Crouching can also give more time for people to react accordingly to the demonflip. Sometimes just messing up the direction to block for a instant grants Gouken an opportunity, but now its pretty hard to mess up when you just have to block low.
Again, the main reason DF overhead divekick was taken out was likely because of how powerful it was against charge characters WITHOUT any of the AE changes. If they were to keep this along with the AE changes, DF mixups would be ridiculous.
Plink cr.short ~ cr.jab to make the reversal easier and the meaty DF Palm will whiff on Gouken’s wakeup.
I will go back and try it, and what Nevillebamshew recommended. I didn’t think that would work against the particular timing I was using with the DF. I will check a bit later if I have time.
Okay, from those who have played AE Gouken how does he feel? Presumably better?
What are the changes to kongo like?
that doesn’t sound right. Akuma’s palm is still overhead. He doesn’t destroy charge chars.
His palm is a knockdown. Overhead divekick into Gouken combos is a whole different world.
The knockdown is exactly how akuma gets his damage. All of akuma’s flip options lead to knockdown and timing to do it again. It all feeds directly into his game.
Charge character players complaining that they have to block’n’tech? seriously? That’s the only safe option for gouken 90% of the time. OH MY the HORRORS of blocking!
Being a PC player, I’ve been living in the wonderful world of overhead flip kick this whole time. It just makes me so sad that they essentially took away his one legit mixup. Capcom CLEARLY doesn’t want Gouken to have good tools. sc.mp being +7 is the ONLY purely-good addition they’ve made that I think truly effects his game. Everything else significant has been nerf or tradeoff. Backthrow nerf. Moved kongo to avoid the tatsu overlap? Sure but only by making kongo suck even more. A quick Palm? Sure, but only by removing the old lp.Palm’s frametraps and other mid distance general uses. They should have moved original LP palm to MP, and MP to HP and dropped HP.Palm completely. I guess you could consider ex.tatsu lock to be a buff, but I consider it a bug fix. The knockdowns from air-to-air nj.FP and dj.HK are nice in concept, but because they are techable they end up as nothing but flow interrupting toys.
Bleh.
If it weren’t for that fact that PC Vanilla online play will become a ghost town once AE is out, I wouldn’t “upgrade”. At least, that’s the way I see it.
J.mp combos into tatsu and after 2 hit j.mp you can j.RH
the combo into air tatsu gives us, what, another 70-80 damage and different spacing, but loss of frames. I don’t see that as a significant change to gameplay.
The 2 hit forward j.mp followed by techable knockdown from j.fp or dj.hk again gives us another 70 damage vs the second dj.mp hit. I guess I can see this as a modest damage buff, but I don’t know that it really changes how I play any matchups. I’d be interested in seeing any new setups to be gotten from the change in timing and spacing.
I hope that’s not directed towards me…I use Gouken (In SSFIV at least, AE I’m thinking of Oni).
But anyway, Gouken’s AE changes are all good and no doubt outweigh the negatives. The tatsu overlap removal gives Gouken the ability to more consistently AA without worries of the wrong move coming out, or using stuff like c.LP xx HK tatsu. That, for me at least, is a good enough reason to want such a change. Sure, HP counter could’ve been done way better (Like using EX counter properties for way less damage, like 100, would’ve been a good thing to do)…but hey, I can do the one fundamental thing that Gouken severely struggles with consistently, now. The palm change could’ve been done better, also, like shifting the distances…the biggest issue with losing the old LP palm is Blanka’s EX roll and well-spaced LP roll is now unpunishable for Gouken, but other than that, Gouken gets a reliable 4f punisher that isn’t horribly unsafe if you screw it up, and when it lands, it’s a knockdown with much better options than what you had before. And two of Gouken’s best air-to-air moves now knockdown when they connect in those situations, as well as being able to connect from j.MP. If I’m not mistaken, both knockdowns in most cases allow for safe DF pressure. That is negligible…? Wat??? Not to mention, DF parry recovers much faster upon landing, which allows him to much better take advantage of using DF to advance and bait out AAs. And what about the cl.MK change that nobody has utitlized at all yet? There is heavy potential in that normal now that it is 3f. Also, j.MP xx tatsu is not significant until you factor in that air tatsu on its own is 200 stun…stun is a big asset for Gouken.
A lot of Gouken’s buffs give him much more solid fundamentals than before, as well as actual pressure tools. The only serious thing he lost is backthrow damage, but in the long run, that still is a pretty small price to pay. I don’t even understand why gimmicky stuff like LP palm traps are even worried about.
Directed at you personally? no. It’s directed at those who see the removal of gouken’s overhead flip kick as justified because charge characters didn’t like to block.
How can changes be both “all good” and have negatives? My point wasn’t that the new additions weren’t good in any way whatsoever, but rather bemoaning the fact that many of the changes came with a helping of s**tsandwhich nerfs for no good reason. As for lp.palm, I guess I used it safely in more situations than most. It’s definitely a (not overused) tool in my toolbox currently that will be sorely missed. And kongo was already a risky move to use, mathematically losing more often than it wins, and now they’ve make it even worse.
Before they were knockdowns, the timing for followups was consistent. Now that they are techable knockdowns, the timing is not consistent. Am I really the only one who prefers consistent timing?
Coming from Vanilla, they completely removed the nearly-instant recovery option that flip throw wiff had and made it very punishable, while also making it harder to throw by not inducing a standing opponent defending flip kick. And while I prefer the short-recovery on flip parry, it’s clearly not as instant as wiff throw used to be. Overall, I think we can all agree (please correct me if I don’t speak for you) that if choosing between vanilla and AE flip mechanics, vanilla is the winner.
Yes, you are 100% correct that I forgot about this. Overall I think it’s an awkward normal to be gouken’s only 3f, but I’ll take it. I would have prefered cr.mk over sc.mk. It would have been awesome if they had taken cr.mk, removed 1 startup frame and added 1 active frame. With it being sc.mk, we still can’t crouch-tech with a 3-framer. Speaking of crouchteching, WHY is cr.lk FIVE FRAME. come on, at least make it 4.
Yes, I didn’t factor stun in. However, with the loss of frame advantage (that’s a gut feeling, I’d love to see some numbers there, assuming a fairly instant jump -> mp hit) from comboing into tatsu, it’s hard to see it being that useful in getting someone stunned. Pretty rare is it for me to see a decent player on the verge of stun attempt to jump into me.
I want to be clear that the +7 on sc.mp is something that I consider HUGE for gouken. Maybe I just suck with flip kick timing, but I’m so happy to FINALLY I have some buffer after an ambiguous flip kick to know which side i’m landing on in order to get the right combo out.
That said, my perspective, coming from vanilla to AE, is that backthrow nerf is not even close to the only serious thing gouken has lost. I think we may have to agree to disagree on that.
Um, doesn’t air Tatsu do 120 damage or so? J.RH is an extra 100 damage on an air to air you would have probably gotten nothing extra off of anyway.
Whether you like it or not, it’s something we didn’t have before and I merely mentioned it cause you left it out, or whoever was saying all the negative stuff.
How are the new additions not good when, again, a lot of them solve fundamental problems? Yes, they have negatives, but the negatives aren’t as bad as you make it out to be.
You barely got anything for these particular situations.
I certainly don’t feel that way. If anything, DF’s function basically changed from being more mixup-based to fundamental-based. IMO it’s better.
c.MK in an OS tech I don’t really find all that spectacular over just a normal crouch tech. It’s 1 frame, yeah, but the hitbox is so awkward as far as using it for such a purpose. It doesn’t really hit anywhere, whereas c.LK does.
Not after it’s built up, but before all that. You get a knockdown plus some heavy stun to start with. A knocked down opponent doesn’t have much to work with other than reversal, backdash, or block…you can’t just factor in numbers for particular scenarios like that.
Yes, that’s the beauty of it…also, there’s cl.HK being +5 on hit…that’s huge when you consider that cl.HK is FASTER than cl.MP. It may have its uses over cl.MP in certain areas.
True.
Ya, but you have to subtract the damage the tatsu does from the damage the second hit of the dj.mp would have done. maybe i low-balled it by 10 or so damage, but i was going by memory.
And ya, more options are always good, but i’d rather get buffs in areas i need rather than buffs in areas that were already ok.
again, i’m not saying the new additions are not good, i’m saying I’m not thrilled with the turdsandwhich of nerfs that come with them.
sc.mk @ 3f and sc.mp @ +7 are the only things that solve fundamental problems without annoying tradeoffs. the tatsu/kongo overlap solved a fundamental problem, but we paid for it by making kongo an even worse risk. I’d like to see the justification for that one. And the 3f and +7 were apparently “paid for” by nerfing the HELL out of backthrow.
We may disagree about which is better, but even still, they didn’t need to take away the mixup aspect to make the fundamental aspect better. I can see no justification beyond wanting to keep him down the tier list.
I can’t think of any situation where i’d be crouchteching and cr.mk wouldn’t hit the opponent. The advantage to cr.mk in a many scenarios is more than just the extra frame, it’s also to hit the hopping normal overheads and the dive kicks.
OK, but i’m saying that the loss of frame advantage (due to air time and recovery) makes pressing the offense harder, despite the knockdown. I’d don’t remember seeing an AE vid where this is utilized to press an offense, but I’d be happy to change my tune on this. Again, it’s more of a gut feeling than experience or doing the math. Seems to me that you’d have to use lk.tatsu to be able to have hope of pressing any kind of offense, considering the airtime on the harder ones.
not only the air time but also postioning. like ryu’s tatsu, the higher the kick used the closer you are when you land.
Second hit does 30 damage. You get all 80 in the j.mp j.hk combo so, 180 damage and an extra 200 stun for an air to air attack. The j.mp xx air hurricane is 90 more damage and 200 extra stun. Only thing air hurricane may be desirable for is moving towards the corner.
bro i will advise you that you made the most awesome point …you have the vanilla to ae perspective…i will be paying close attention to your thoughts on changes and other shit and hopefully we can discuss more in detail in the future as findings in trainingmode warrant/////…i just think its cool that youve been removed from playing super gouken you still have that original fundemaental hands on gouken experience to speak from which i think centers around the gflip setups and style quite a bit…as i still play him like he has the flip kick overhead properties…looking forward to it…stay up!
tick throws and or flip throws and mixups will be those opponents own undoing…