Dude, that Fei vs Honda match up is so f*cked up!!! If top pros played like that, there’s something wrong with the match up. Get rid of the stored Ochio, then Fei can work harder to pull off a sneaky win (same shit apply to Gief, Cammy vs Honda match ups).
Eh, I don’t know how much the stored Ochio is really changing things. I ochio crossups pretty reliably anyway, and you can’t attribute that to storing. It’s not like, say, Fei doing these chicken wings against Zangief isn’t going to get command thrown too.
I’m not a big believer in balance through input motions. Ochio being stored or not has little impact on the real matchups. Actual move properties are what affects matchups.
Also, when did this “Confirmed patch” thread turn into a Honda balance discussion?
The bottom line on Honda is that he produces a lot of boring matches where the optimal strategy is for both players to do nothing. Not changing that represents a missed opportunity. And now that he’s better and more popular it means you get that many more boring matches.
When I search ranked matches> custom, WHY THE FUCK does it not display lowest pings first?!?!? By the time I scroll down the list to the lowest ping, it is ALWAYS taken by someone else, just let me press down and then A to connect to the lowest ping!
i second that, some way of getting a decent connection rather than characters teleporting around sort of connectivity
and each person in the lobby should have a ping it sucks when i find a game with a low ping host and then its ball breakingly slow against other players
And ive only just seen the ps3 online, why does it show full rooms in search that is the most ridiculous thing ive ever seen
ive never seen a full game on the 360 filter that out
Seriously? I wholeheartedly am against this whole “Honda is overpowered” fad, but even I think the stored Ochio is kinda crap. It reduces the execution from a somewhat complex motion to a release of a button. It takes basically zero reaction time to pull one off. And, since it grabs moves in mid-stream from far away that lunge towards him it means he can Ochio anyone with no effort from miles away as defense.
Not that I make a habit of it, but sometimes i can walk-in throw Gief or Hawk. I can walk-in throw Honda like 1% of the time. That’s a little crazy. It’s even more ridiculous considering that doing other moves doesn’t negate his ochio charge. That’s just plain silly.
BTW, my issue with this isn’t the complexity of the motion. It’s the reaction time involved. The problem is that you can store the ochio during almost any situation and pull it off at a moment’s notice. A SPD, SRK, etc takes more time to execute, regardless of how good you are at it.
I disagree, since not having much of an incentive to attack is a problem in a lot of matchups where neither player has a fireball. Does Fei have much of an incentive to attack Cammy, or vice versa? Not really. I actually think that Honda’s hands is one of the less risky ways to deal damage among non-fireball characters, so his incentive for doing something is a little bigger.
Damn, look at all the Honda hate up in here.
There is no need to nerf Honda as long as other characters have more good matches and less bad ones than Honda does.
If you took the matchups of each character, and assigned more points the more solidly they beat a character, and subtract points the more they are beaten by a character, Honda is not one of the top characters - even in remix.
Just look at nohoho’s poll for classic ST - he’s not even close to Rog, Sim and Vega’s level.
It’s just that Hawk, Fei and Cammy are just so low. And Honda’s not the only character with a solid advantages vs those folks either.
I say buff the low-tier characters instead of hurting Honda.
Sure he doesn’t “need” the stored no-wiff oicho in any way, but it’s not broken to have it, and it’s fun to use - so why take away fun from the Honda player?
It’s not like every single command throw in the game needs a wiff now. If that were the case, I say give vega an air-wiff.
Hawk does deserve hitting frames in exchange for getting the wiff. The implications of leaving it as a 0 frame move and giving it a whiff I don’t think were fully considered.
Gief gained 10 hitting frames when he was saddled with the whiff - hawk should have 5 or so IMO.
For all you “honda should have a whiff” folks - he’d deserve to pick up hitting frames too if he got one - so it’s not like the oicho wouldn’ be nasty - the fact is, he has a command throw.
Having a command throw means he is a grappler. ST has three grapplers, not two, and Honda is one of them. This means that he is intended to, and should indeed retain a throwing advantage against all of the non-grapplers. Just as Fei, Cammy, Blanka, Sim, Ken and Rog wouldn’t want to try and cross-up throw Hawk or Gief, they should be equally accepting that they should not be that close to Honda.
If Honda lost his extreme dangerousness up close, the fireball characters with strong inside games like Ken and Dee-Jay would have their cake and eat it too vs. Honda.
The answer is to buff fei and Cammy IMO. How? I’m not sure.
But Hawk deserves hitting frames on that command throw as long as he has a whiff - seriously, whiff = hitting frames should be a SF2 axiom.
It’s not just a coincidence that in all these balance and patch threads, Honda always comes up. He’s just too dominant against non-fireball characters, end of story.
Oh and on the kicking issue - Host should be able to kick whoever they want. It’s about player choice - if someone takes the time to set up a room and fill it, they should be able to decide who they play with.
Sure one can always make a private room, but opening the room to the public shouldn’t mean a host should have to accept whoever jumps in - say someone is being disruptive. Sure you can mute 'em - but that doesn’t stop a room that was having good conversations suddenly become all about the troll, while some people mute them, and others argue with them - the fact is that a troll can destroy the enjoyable social dynamic of a good room, mute feature or not.
If a scrub wants to set up a scrubs room and boot strong players, that’s fine by me - same if good players set up an “elite room” and boot scrubs.
It’s about choices.
Also there is a weird bug that makes the screen not scroll down when the number of rooms is too great to display in one screen. If you continue to scroll down, the select highlighting goes away, but it invisably continues down the list allowing one to blindly select the “extra” games - but you cannot see them or their properties.
I think the reason that Honda hate keeps coming up in any character balance thread is that there is a group of posters on SRK that dislike fighting him and take every single oppertunity to remind everyone how much they hate honda in any possible thread they can.
If someone makes the slightest peep about Honda, the “anti-Honda squad” piles on. If you go back and look at the threads, there’s a lot of the same faces, saying the same things over and over.
There was never nearly the noise about Honda for all those years that people played ST. Tournement after tournement, EVO after EVO, You don’t see Honda winning it all very often and very few complained. The GGPO players still seemed rather satisfied with ST and in that he has double stun and the corner loop.
Then he gets slightly less boned vs. fireball characters, loses some effectiveness on the oicho and slaps and suddenly he’s a monster to the non-fireballers.
So his good matches got slightly less good, and his bad matches got slightly less bad - I think he stabalized more than moved up in rating.
Just because he’s less screwed against Ryu, doesn’t mean that his advantage vs. Fei is now suddenly intolerable.
It’s like to some, other characters are allowed to have good matchups in the 8+ out of 10 level, but Honda isn’t.
Cammy herself beats Hawk solidly. Guile is very dominant against Cammy, Gief and Honda, with fewer weaknesses than Honda has - why is it OK for Guile and not Honda?
I see double standards when it comes to the Honda debate left, right and center.
this is just sorta human, to be confined to their own perspective.
my beef with honda isn’t so much that he’s overpowered in any given matchup or underpowered in any other matchup. It’s more that playing against d/b ->headbutt dumbs the quality of the game down.
that said, i wouldn’t do anything about it. there will always be honda players, and i will just accept that fact and move on. if i get really frustrated with honda i’ll just mirror and show them how stupid of a character he is.
It’s not just on this forum; the forums at Sirlin.net and gamefaqs say pretty much the same thing about Honda.
Not to do an appeal to majority but maybe there is a reason there are so many complaining about him ?
Sure there’s a reason - bitter Cammy and Fei players.
But the end result is that people seem to want Honda to be the only character with no good matchups, and since some say he’s already good enough against fireballs - they are then saying that he should only have even and losing matches.
From a win-loss matchup perspective - Honda is strictly in the middle - there are quite a few characters that have more good matchups and fewer bad ones than Honda. Heck, some have the opposite of what certian people want Honda to become. That is, instead of being all even matches, with some losing ones, they actually have all even matches, with some winning ones! Why not tone those characters down first?
It’s like certian people want Honda to be uniquely balanced - with no characters that he has a clear advantage against even though no other character is like that! ('cept maybe pre-remix Hawk! - but they tried to fix that)
As long as Cammy beats Hawk, Guile still beats Honda, Gief, Cammy and Fei. - he’s as dominant against those characters as Honda himself is.
So why is it ok for Guile, but not Honda?
I think people think that there’s something sacred about using projectiles, overhead mixups, combo’s and crossups that makes people forgive the fact that those tools are at least as potent as Honda’s projectile-less defensive tactics.
I see a bandwagon by players that hate losing to a fat man.
lol @ cammy beating hawk.
Uh, no. He’s correct about that.
It’s funny how every time Honda is brought up as being overpowered, only people who play Honda defend the claim; when people who don’t play him defend it, it usually starts like this: “Well I don’t think Honda is overpowered, but here’s what needs to change…” I stuck my cousin online in a few matches and he was playing Fei, he had never played and just wanted to do it for fun. He was in a player match so he was staying with the same people, and was getting perfected almost every time; he switched to Honda, and then ended up beating someone, who had perfected him 2 rounds before with Fei, with basically jump ins, chip damage, and the occasional accidental head but. Another friend of mine quit playing him because he “felt dirty” playing him.
Not even.
seriously, i dont think honda is that bad.
well he is if you are cammy, fei, gief and t hawk.
shotos beat him cleanly. i dont want to hear any complaints that it takes more work for shotos to win than honda. theres already 34834085405945039 shoto players in the world and only 1% of those actually know what they are doing. bottom line is if you know what you’re doing, then you shouldnt be losing to the fat man.
honda is not the problem, its those characters that loses to him that needs tweaking.